Oberu Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 Greetings all, been gone a long time. So I'm having a reoccurring issue. I'm making a laminate blade using an edge steel of high carbon, clad in 15n20, and that is clad in wrought iron. I'm on episode 3 of explicatories and thought I'd ask some of you beautiful minds. First attempt was using an edge bar of 1095 and it went great until the temper where the edge bar split down the spine as shown here. Next attempt I used an edge bar of 1084 and everything looked really good. I started hollow grinding the edge and found this. I noticed it was only on one side of the blade so I began chasing the crack trying to get past them. So my question is.. what the heck am I doing wrong? I know my temps were good and the material was good. Quenched in the proper oil at the proper temps and tempered twice at a reasonable temperature. I'm about to run out of curse words here. Thanks for letting me rant and I appreciate any feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 Good Morning, Welcome to our world. again. North West Blacksmith Association will be having their Spring Conference in Longview, May 17-19. The Conference will be at Longview Fairgrounds, just over the first bridge and to the left. NWBA is using one of the buildings for their home base. www.blacksmith.org There are a bunch of Blade Smiths that you would want to talk to. In actual fact, some of them live probably 20-30 minutes from you now. If you can make the journey, I hope to see you there. I will be there. If you can't, send me a PM and I will get you their information. Another fine day, above the dirt!! Thanks, Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 What are you fluxing with and how? Not that I'm a bladesmith guy but I've stuck a few pieces of steel together. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oberu Posted May 10 Author Share Posted May 10 Hello Mr Frosty, good to see you still around. I'm using store bought borax and it's in a parmesan shaker. I use a brush to clear off the slag and sprinkle it on the edges before putting it back in the forge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 Good to see you too and glad to be around to pester the youngsters now I have an excuse. You might try a better, more aggressive flux. Hit the local welding supply and look through the torch welding section. I switched from 20 mule team borax and boric acid mix to Peterson's #1 blue, commercial flux, $26 / 1 lb. can. when I bought a can, it looks to cost a bit more now but it works as well as any "real" forge welding fluxes I've tried for about 1/2 the price or less. Peterson makes some real aggressive fluxes for stainless too. I polish all the joint surfaces on the belt grinder, (400 grit) wipe them IMMEDIATELY with a light lube oil, 3in1 works a treat, DUST everything with Petersons and tack weld them together with the mig. Or wire them if you wish to go old school. All you need is a prophylactic barrier between clean steel and atmospheric oxy. A light dusting BEFORE you apply heat will melt and coat the steel before the oil burns out. The oil leaves a pure carbon residue which reduces the melting temp of the steel AT the join surfaces. You won't see molten borax squirting out of the joint and it's unnecessary because there won't be any scale to flush out if you flux before it can form. After you set the weld, brush or file the edges and flux before it cools, capillarity will draw flux into any gaps. Reheat and refine the weld. That's how I do it anyway. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oberu Posted May 10 Author Share Posted May 10 Mr Frosty, WIll you by chance be attending the Northwest Blacksmithing Association Spring conference in Longview Wa? Its this next weekend. Would like to shake your hand and buy you a lager. Also, excellent advice on prepping welds. I'll steal this from you and try it. My issues weren't welds but the center steel being absolutely man handled by the cladding.. splits, cracks inside, questiong my life's choices. I appreciate the wisdom an be good Sir! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goods Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 What quench oil are you using? You may have to move to a slow quench to reduce the internal stress. Also, are you going directly to tempering cycles after the quench? Just a few thoughts… Keep it fun, David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 Question: Is the weld delaminating, or is the core cracking? Those are two different problems. I'm not a bladesmith myself and this is very much NOT my area of expertise, but Graham Clarke had a video about this the other day. He confesses that a lot of what he says is supposition, but it might provide some insight and possible avenues of further exploration: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 14 hours ago, Oberu said: So my question is.. what the heck am I doing wrong? Maybe nothing. If you haven't already, you should watch the video that JHCC linked to above. The first time I saw this phenomenon I thought it was delamination at the weld seams, but closer inspection revealed the hard core split down the middle and the welds held. The only quasi-remedy I've found is to use a thicker core and thinner cladding if you want to use a non-hardenable material on the outside. Unfortunately that means you have less material you can grind away and still get the effect you are after, so you have to forge pretty darn close to final shape if you go that route. In the video he suggests that applying clay on and near the spine for the quench may decrease or eliminate the phenomenon as well. I haven't personally attempted that approach, but it's certainly worth a try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 Oberu: Please stop with the Mr., sir, etc. Just "Frosty or Jer" is my preference. No, I'm afraid won't be making NWBA conference. Hopefully I'll get a chance to make others this summer but . . . It's a season timing thing. I'm pretty sure I have relatives in or near Longview but I have relatives scattered thickly all over the Pac. NW. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oberu Posted May 11 Author Share Posted May 11 Fair enough Frosty. Southern vet so it just comes out without thinking. I’m going to give this laminate one more shot. I’ll do an edge quench on a mostly ground blade. Breaking down wrought iron in a propane forge is not as much fun as it should be but once more into the breach! Thanks for all the information and comments. p.s. Been watching the UK blade show guys as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 Sorry, looking back it isn't that big a thing. I must've been having one of Those days to feel bothered enough to say something. Please feel free. Bearing in mind I am not a bladesmith so my opinion is FWIW. I never really understood edge quenches except for shaping a blade. It causes a lot of stress. The few blades I've made were given a progressive temper by heating from the spine with a torch. The stress builds slowly enough it can distribute and relax during the process. Quenching works because the temperature change is too sudden for the carbon to come out of solution with the steel. An edge quench focuses all the sudden stress in a narrow strip on the edge. Lots of folks use the technique successfully and a person can't realistically argue with that. Hmmm? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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