Avadon Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 For making holes in hot steel what kind of punches should one be using. What kind shape works best. I thought of usnig pin punches but I wonder do these push the metal out of the way well or would something tapered like a center punch be better. Which has a tendency to create the least bulge or deformation of the surrounding area? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 Punches should punch. Parallel or taper with a square end either will do the job, And my personal preference is a sharp square edge at the business end, others may prefer a slight radius on the edges It may also depend on how accurate you want the hole, parallel will give you a finished size, tapered will not be as accurate, and will deform the sides of the bar being punched more than a parallel punch the further it passes through the workpiece enlarging the hole the deeper it goes. For accurate sized holes, punch through and finish with the correct size drift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted October 18, 2008 Author Share Posted October 18, 2008 Excellent info.. thanks for the help. Just wanted to make sure I was on the right track ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orgtwister Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 one thing you should remember that most punches you find localy are not for punching hot steel the best i have seen are made of h13 toolsteel which are made for hot steel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurlyGeorge Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Avadon, John is correct on distortion. But I still like my handled punch that I made. It started life as a ball pein hammer. Four and one half hours later, spent using a 5 pound sledge, This is what I ended up with. But it only goes down to 5/16 of an inch. BTW, go up to the top of the page, hit User CP and add into your info where you are from. Welcome to IFI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted October 19, 2008 Author Share Posted October 19, 2008 I'm going to be welding an array of punches onto small little billet shapes like in the Vaughans (hope works) catalog. I can make those easy enough so no need to order them from half way around the world. I just wanted to make sure i was using the right punches and it sounds like I am. I need these so I can make my forging tongs and get busy with my nemesis custom forge :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug C Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Was at the Fitchburg Forge-in today and the demonstrator (Carl Close of Hammersmith Studios in Concord,Ma) said the same thing. Use h13 for hot cut chisels and punches. Wouldn't other Chromium or Moly steels work as well? Mark Aspery mentions 4140 and 4130 in his book. What is the difference between these steels? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted October 19, 2008 Author Share Posted October 19, 2008 Well these are Dasco punches. They don't give a rating on the package. I don't understand why it would need to be special steel if it's going through hot metal. Seems like it shouldn't take a whole lot to get through it as it's not like one is cold working tryinig to punch through the metal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted October 19, 2008 Author Share Posted October 19, 2008 I just found this thread http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f7/h-13-a-7060/ and was reading it.. So will normal punches crack pretty fast? Is it the heat differential that destroys them? Do they actually crack or do they bend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 When you have a relatively thin piece of steel stuck into a much larger piece or REALLY HOT steel it tends to ruin the heat treat on the punch or chisel. 4140, 5160, etc. are not hot working steels so they will be adversely effected being driven through hot stock. Oh, they'll work but you really have to stay on top of them or over heating can cause all kinds of mischief. They can become softened and blunt or pien themselves in holes you're trying to punch. Or worse, you might quench them at heat and cause embrittlement which can result in flying metal shards. The snap you hear when a chip comes off a hammer, chisel, the edge of your anvil, etc. is the chip breaking the sound barrier and you're standing close enough it won't have slowed down much when you meet. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted October 19, 2008 Author Share Posted October 19, 2008 YIKES! I've never heard of that.. sounds scary. Well these punches only go up to 1/4" But when would one ever be quenching the punches in question. Seems like you would use them quickly and then hang them back up. Do people put them in water sometimes to quickly cool them to get ready to go again? Is that what your talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 (edited) Oh yeah. You can't go through a piece in one go sometimes so you have to cool the punch, hot set, slitter, etc. If it's not a hot working steel and you let it get hot enough it'll deform in the hole and become a fixture. If you work fast enough and keep it cool you're okay. Smiths have been doing this for centuries though one eyed ex-smiths were pretty darned common. So, while you can use low alloy tool steels, say a nice tough 1045-1060 why take the chance when there're steels specifically made to be used at high heat? Sure, they're pretty expensive but they save time, money and are safer. Once you get into punches much over 1/2" low alloy, med C steels are okay as there's enough meat there to keep from over heating quickly. You still can't just hammer on it till it stops or you'll jam it and you don't want to be quenching it if it's a nice bright red but larger is safer. Frosty Edited October 19, 2008 by Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmith Jim Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 (edited) I try to religiously quench coil spring made tools every 3 strikes. I only have 1 h13 punch (buncha blanks tho) but I'll let that go 7 or 8 strikes before quenching. The h13 has performed marvelously, the coil spring punches have gotten the job done, but I redress them a lot more between heats with a hand file. I've heat treated coil spring tools, and not, and found it a lot better when they are treated. But again, they work to a degree. H13 is air hardening, so you can forge it to shape, give it a good heat, and let it slowly cool. Then dress and use, no fancy heat treat. Edited October 19, 2008 by RegionalChaos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theimi Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Quote RegionalChaos: "...H13 is air hardening, so you can forge it to shape, give it a good heat, and let it slowly cool. Then dress and use, no fancy heat treat...." yeah, but air hardening does not mean heat and let cool slowly. thats more normalising than hardening. It should be an 'air quench', a strong blast of cool air for example. You will get a much better working H13 tool with a good heat treat. I tried it once with the blower of my coal forge (VERY strong, if i give full power it blows the biggest coal pieces out of the forge through the shop) but was not really satisfied. I quench mine in warm oil which works really nice for me. frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted October 19, 2008 Author Share Posted October 19, 2008 I'm gonna bookmark this thread. Where does one find H13 Rod for making pin punches to forge with and I assume I can weld this type of rod to chunks of steel to put on handles correct? I looked in the MSC blue book 2008 Catalog and couldn't find any reference to "H13". (MSC is where I normally order, unless someone has a better idea) I guess no one sells sets of like common size pin punches for blacksmiths out of H13? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmith Jim Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 yeah, but air hardening does not mean heat and let cool slowly. thats more normalising than hardening. It should be an 'air quench', a strong blast of cool air for example. You will get a much better working H13 tool with a good heat treat. I tried it once with the blower of my coal forge (VERY strong, if i give full power it blows the biggest coal pieces out of the forge through the shop) but was not really satisfied. I quench mine in warm oil which works really nice for me. frank I hear yea. For getting THE MOST out of it, you should air quench for sure. But I think if you talk to a lot of people, they will 'forge and forget' air hardening tool steels. I know I hear people talking about 'forging and forgetting' H13 and S7. I'm not claiming to be an expert or anything, and I'm not forging for my income. Just a hobbiest. But I've only had to dress my slot punch once I think... If warm oil is working for you though I think thats great. It's not hard to quench in warm oil, I have oil to quench tools made from spring. So maybe I'll give that a try in the future.. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmith Jim Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 You might be able to order H13 punches from a blacksmith supply or maybe mcmaster or something, I haven't looked. I purchased about a half dozen 8" pieces of 3/4" rod from a farrier supply store. All I have to do is heat it and shape it. I would plan on getting the material and making my tools, as opposed to just finding the tool to buy. I would typically plan on this because I think it would be quicker, and I would get what I want (hopefully). I tend to try to buy or make tools once I actually have a use for them. Saves money, time, space by not just hoarding things I think are neat. Not that I have any problem with that. Its really handy to have something already there when you need it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theimi Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 H13 (A.I.S.I) => No. 1.2344 => X 40 Cr Mo V 5-1 (DIN) is what u are looking for. Any supplier has his own name for it. hth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rthibeau Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 one online source for H13 is speedy metals Speedy Metals - H-13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted October 19, 2008 Author Share Posted October 19, 2008 one online source for H13 is speedy metals Speedy Metals - H-13 can you find this stuff under 1/2" for making punches? Also do you have to make tongs out of this stuff to? or can tongs be made from simple A36 mild steel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theimi Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Much too expensive for tongs and absolutely not necessary (except your tongs become red glowing while forging ) mild steel is fine in 99%, for extra strong tongs it may be useful to use a low carbon steel, C45 for example Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmith Jim Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 can you find this stuff under 1/2" for making punches? Forge it down to the size you want.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theimi Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Forge it down to the size you want.. Happy hammerin' LOL as long as you dont own a power hammer (dont know whats the smallest size available at your place, here it starts at 20mm diameter) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted October 19, 2008 Author Share Posted October 19, 2008 I don't get it.. how does one forge a piece of tool steel from 1/2 Rod to 1/4" or 1/8" rod to make a pin punch. You can do this? and you can get a near perfect rod? I thought that could only be done on a lathe? Most of the punches i'm looking to make are under 3/8's and under. Please don't tell me I can't find that in H13 cause I just returned my Dasco pin punch set to Lowes today lol.. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmith Jim Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Happy hammerin' LOL as long as you dont own a power hammer (dont know whats the smallest size available at your place, here it starts at 20mm diameter) You can hand forge H13 easy enough. You just need to work it at a high heat, and not try to work it any lower. It might not move like wrought iron, but you can move it ok. Especially if we're just talking tapering 5/8" down to 1/4" or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.