Speaking of Copper

[George N. M.]

Coincidentally to our discussion of copper yesterday here is an article regarding a 4k year old copper dagger found in Poland.

https://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/69556#respond

By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Frosty]

Interesting article, thanks George. I'm always a little surprised by how many archeologists still resist the idea that human industry didn't transition from stone to bronze without a copper industry between. I believe copper artefacts are rare because bronze was so superior and required copper to make so it got tossed in the pot. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

[Daswulf]

Amazing how much in history has been recycled. 

[Frosty]

I believe it's the product of not having enough to be wasteful or sentimental when something better comes along.

Frosty The Lucky

[Daswulf]

I agree Frosty. The two world wars wiped out a lot of previously made metal items. That is probably nothing compared to if the materials were more scarce.

[Frosty]

My folks grew up a lot during the depression, nothing wasted and made do a lot to get by. One of Dad's favorite stories was how you couldn't buy babbit bearings so he had to use gristle in the old model A and replace it every month or so. I should've asked what kind of gristle lasted longest but I suspect it was probably pork or deer, beef cost more to raise and was kind of scarce for regular folk. 

Mother and her Mother (we called Mom or Suzie) made all the clothes for the family and took in sewing, knitting, etc.

I grew up with a big ball of aluminum foil and another of string under the kitchen sink. I could tell what day of the week it was by what was for dinner and what week of the month is was by a roast in the oven. 

Suzie was still rinsing out cans in the 60s, old habits die hard. 

Then there is the flip side. Planned obsolescence was "invented" to use up some of the enormous production capacity WWII built in America. If cars, toasters, etc. lasted as long as they did 20 years earlier factories would be closing down all over. BUT if stuff wore out, especially in a predictable time frame the factories could keep working. People would have jobs, folks across the country and from there around the world would get a little prosperity for the suffering of the war years.

Frosty The Lucky

[Daswulf]

And here I just ordered a new set of nonstick pots and pans because the teflon coating is wearing off the old ones that we just got as a gift about 2 years ago. I did some serious research to see what would last longer this time. (Liz will only use those type but doesnt take the care they need to remain non stick) once they are scratched up they are worse than the good old stainless steel pots and pans. 

I don't mind the stainless ones but prefer my. Cast iron that is probably older than my parents. (Liz won't use them, or maybe I don't let. Her because she tried to clean them with. Soap and water before. I did show. Her the proper way but it is too much work I guess. Not that it is.) 

Anyway cast iron has withstood the tests of time. Maybe they will have some in a museum in a couple thousand years from now. 

I.  Will try to teach my kids the wonders of cast iron cooking when. They are ready. 

revereware is good stuff with a copper bottom. 

Back to copper. 

[Nobody Special]

I love cast iron, but have you tried cooking with carbon steel? Lighter, more even heat, and you can transition between different levels of heat much faster. And I even hear that it's something a blacksmith could make...

I'm always torn when I melt down pewter or cut up metal objects. I can get pewter, silver, and sometimes bronze, brass, or copper from cookware, plates, etc. at the thrift store for next to nothing, but I always feel guilty when I'm cutting it up and destroying something already finished. On the other hand, when you start to look at what it would cost to buy...

I love the look of pewter inlays, caps, and bolsters, and it's not like tin is getting any cheaper.

[JHCC]

19 hours ago, Daswulf said:

Amazing how much in history has been recycled. 

There's actually a lot of archaeological work being done on ancient glass that focusses precisely on this. Glass changes color depending on how much its constituent elements get oxidized, so certain colors often indicate how many times a particular bit of glass had been remelted.

18 hours ago, Frosty said:

I could tell what day of the week it was by what was for dinner

Like the minister who didn't say Grace over the casserole, because he'd already blessed everything in it.

17 hours ago, Daswulf said:

I just ordered a new set of nonstick pots and pans because the teflon coating is wearing off the old ones

Quick tip: if you're going to use nonstick pans, get the inexpensive aluminum ones sold in restaurant supply houses (unless you need something induction-compatible). The nonstick surface will last just as long, and you won't be throwing away an expensive piece of stainless steel once it wears out.

10 hours ago, Nobody Special said:

have you tried cooking with carbon steel?

All the time. Several years back, I got a carbon steel pan from a restaurant supply place that has been my go-to midsize sauté pan ever since. You have to care for it like cast iron, but once seasoned, it's fantastic. The preferred pan of restaurant chefs, and with good reason.

10 hours ago, Nobody Special said:

I'm always torn when I melt down pewter or cut up metal objects.

If you watch older videos of silversmiths or the like, you'll see a lot of older work cut up and going into the crucible. I also once saw an old video of a Japanese swordmaker who started with broken pieces of cast iron teapot, since they had been originally made from the same raw material as tamahagane and just needed some serious decarburization.

[Scott NC]

  The Colossus of Rhodes laid around for 800 years after it collapsed.

[Daswulf]

It probably took 800 years to reduce, remove and recycle. 

John, that is interesting on the glass. I am very intrigued on the theories that the ancient precision stone jars found in Egypt might be much older than the time they were attributed to and may have been like heirlooms and made with lost technology. 

 

I haven't used a carbon steel pan other than a wok. Might give it a try, making one as well. 

[Scott NC]

  I was all sold/traded off at once.  Pliny wrote about it.  900 camel loads, but then who knows for sure.  People came to see the ruins.

[JHCC]

1 hour ago, Daswulf said:

that is interesting on the glass.

Here's some more info:

 

[Frosty]

Oh THANKS JOHN! Just what I needed ANOTHER rabbit hole! Interesting link, thanks.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Nobody Special]

On 2/26/2024 at 12:14 PM, Scott NC said:

  I was all sold/traded off at once.  Pliny wrote about it.  900 camel loads, but then who knows for sure.  People came to see the ruins.

As I recall, Pliny was about 600 years early for the Ummayid invasion of the island of Rhodes, although he did write about the ruins. A camel can typically carry maybe 600 lbs, so times 900 camels that makes for about 540,000 lbs of marble and bronze if true.

So, if it was made out of bronze or brass plates with an iron framework and was roughly the size of the Statue of Liberty, which weighs 450,000 lbs..the size would be about right, especially if they took some of the marble base. Still a crazy logistics problem though to get it back to the mainland, arrange food and water for 900 camels on a 1000 mile trip across the Taurus mountains all the way back to Aleppo.

[Scott NC]

  Yes, I mentioned him as describing the ruins.

"This statue fifty-six years after it was erected, was thrown down by an earthquake; but even as it lies, it excites our wonder and admiration. Few men can clasp the thumb in their arms, and its fingers are larger than most statues. Where the limbs are broken asunder, vast caverns are seen yawning in the interior. Within it, too, are to be seen large masses of rock, by the weight of which the artist steadied it while erecting it."

  That came from wikipedia, which I know isn't the most reliable source of information, but where I sometimes start looking.

  Hauling it all off like that would have been a huge thing but humans have done some amazing things in the past.  Who knows?

[George N. M.]

I've been to Rhodes and there is nothing left of the Colossus.  The modern symbol of Rhodes is a statue of a deer on a column.  There are periodically proposals to re-erect a Colossus but nothing has come of them.  Incidentally, almost certainly the colossus was NOT astride the harbor entrance with ships sailing between its legs as is often depeicted in old prints.  That would have required a much larger statue and would have probably required mor sophisticated engineering and construction techniques than were available then.

Fun fact:  The Colusseum in Rome is named for a large, "colossal" statue that originally stood near it.'

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."