Need ideas for a short stair railing

[DocsMachine]

I have a short section of stair railing that I need to embellish.

The framework (roughly pictured below) is 1" square tubing, with the uprights on approximately 16" centers. The top rail will have a wraparound oak handrail attached. The lower edge (the top of the short wall to which the railing is bolted to) will be covered with an oak plank.

So what I'm looking to do is fill the three panels with some wrought ironwork.

Now, there's some limitations: I only have a small propane forge. I can build a larger one if I need to (and I've been planning to) but basically, I'll only be able to heat several inches at a time, of a relatively small bar. (Forge can be opened at both ends, though, so heating the center of a long bar is possible.

I also don't have a power hammer, no fullers, no guillotine tools, and precious few punches. Basically, I have an anvil, several hammers, and a couple of hot-cut hardies. I won't mind having to make a few tools, but there is a bit of a time issue on this so I'd rather not spend most of it making fullers and the like.

On the plus side, I have- and I'm not joking- about half a ton of semirusty 3/8" rod, a 20 foot stick of 3/8" square, 10' of 1/2" square, and piles and piles of miscellaneous sections of other sizes of rod and bar. Local supplier has plenty more in stock, and I'll buy a few bits if need be.

And to assemble it all, I have a MIG and TIG, stick and gas welders, and a stack of machine tools that can do whatever the hammer and forge can't.

Last- and worst- I'm very much still the green amateur at the blacksmithing side.

So, I'm looking for ideas to fill the panels. Scrollwork, perhaps, or Frank Lloyd Wright style geometric patterns? Wrought roses might be a bit beyond my current ability, but just some simple twisted picket bars might be too simple.

The rail is going to be in the entryway of a house- I'd like to see it fancy, but not too overpowering. Owner's a hunter, so I was thinking simple scrollwork in the end panels, and something suggesting a nature scene, or possibly a deer or elk, in the middle panel. Maybe just a stylized elk antler design?

Anyway, suggestions and ideas welcome I need to start on this next Monday (frame's done, I just need to add the embellishment) and I have roughly two weeks to finish it, as it'll be a holiday present done and installed while the owner is out.

If you'd like to draw something, I have a larger copy of the sketch drawing here. (TIF image, apprx. 85KB.)

Thanks.

Doc.

[Falang]

Wow, lot of work to do for just 2 weeks... even with a ready design...

Well, as the railing is not for you, what about telling us more about the guy that gets it? Or the house it ist to be mounted to? You know, tastes are different...

Chris

[DocsMachine]

Well, as I said, the frame is done, the top wood handrail only needs to be trimmed to length and then stained and sealed, and some minor trimwork for the oak base. Technically, I could have the basic handrail installed in a day.

All I'm looking for are some ideas for embellishment- some scrollwork to fill the openings. And it doesn't have to be 300 pounds of 2" diameter scrolls, either. The "mass manufactured" way would be just a single twisted picket in the middle of each panel, each with a pair of S-scrolls that form the classic heart-shape.

That, however, is cliche and awful. I'd like something a bit more elegant, perhaps even a bit mideval. I've been rooting through the galleries looking for ideas, and while there's some very fine work shown in there, I'm having a hard time translating some of that stuff into this particular setup.

I'm also not necessarily looking to go 100% "traditional" here, and use only rivets and forge-welds. I expected to do something like forge a dozen or more separate elements, and then MIG or TIG them into position. I'm hoping everything can be heat-colored more or less uniformly, and then I'll clearcoat everything with some good urethane. (It's an indoor setup.)

Doc.

[ironrosefarms]

Doc, after looking at your website and seeing RAGE, I feel like offering a design suggestion is a lot like the 1st grade student instructing the College prof...

Your first post said the guy is a hunter and you wanted something outside of the basic picket design. That brought a idea of not using vertical posts at all. Using the idea of the elk that you mentioned I sketched a pretty good version on paper, however I don't have a scanner so I have a hack job drawing made in paint... Maybe it will get my idea across... I added the second pix using a bellowing elk pix to help define the lines... the left panel could be any terrain texture or even pickets?

James

[DocsMachine]

Actually, that's not a bad idea. I might have to fiddle with that a bit, as I kind of have my heart set on having at least some classic-style wrought scrollwork, but I see what you're trying to do there.

As for Rage, well, while I did use several hammers and pounded on things, there was no real blacksmithing involved, It was more like clever auto bodywork.

For whatever reason- at least in part because I've never done it before- I'm having a hard time visualizing how to fit wrought-ironwork into this railing, and have it look the way I want it to- but then, I'm not even sure how I want it to look.

What do you call "classic" wrought scrollwork? IS there even such a thing? Or does it go with whichever age it was created in, like Gothic or Victorian or Elizabethan?

Doc.

[Mills]

One way that I do this is to just sit and sketch. When I get something I like I put it into a scale drawing and then make changes as I hammer. It helps to study some other scrollwork for inspiration. Also for simplicity, one scroll jig can produce different sizes of scrolls and those can be hand tweaked to make an infinite variety. So don't feel bogged with tooling.

Here is a link to some nice books on the subject. I get lots of ideas and instruction from them.
Craft publications

[NateDJ]

perhaps combine James design with a few long stem grass with scrolled leaves? just hammer flat a long section with pointed tip and slightly curve the outside edges before scrolling the end and weld the stem to the base of the railing? Maybe even a few twig/leaf combination as well?

[ThomasPowers]

First thing: will that railing pass the local requirements? If not do you want to be associated with it cause if any kid ever gets hurt on it you are stuck holding a great big open bag of liability! So find out what is ther legal requirements for a stair railing where you are at!

If it doesn't pass you may want to design it so when finished it would pass.

My first design thought was tree or grapevine motif, then I though about having a transition with the lowest panel being cat tails and water motifs the next up meadow/scrub motifs and the last forrest motifs

Note that all these can be applied over a background screening of heavy woven wire---like gravel screens that has been painted black or green or blue, etc. (to pass the 4" rule if that is in effect)

[DocsMachine]

The railing goes in a private home in a semirural area. There are no restrictions. It's a gift for family, not a commercial job.

As I said, I'd rather lean toward classic scrollwork of some sort, but after doing several Google Image Searches, and looking through the galleries here, there's simply an endless variety of shapes and styles. I'm having some difficulty sorting out a design that will look classic and elegant, yet something I can make with materials at hand and with the tools available- and not have it take me six months to do it.

I don't ask for much, do I?

Doc.

[ThomasPowers]

Commercial doesn't mean anything in this situation you still have the liability and you don't have a corp to absorb it so they can take your house, car, shop, tools, etc. Being friends doesn't help as much as you would like to either. My insurance states that in case of an accident I have to sue any third party involved or the insurance doesn't have to pay. Many policies have that hidden away in it.

Not having any restrictions is what helps a lot! Hopefully there isn't any state wide ones you are not aware of. I live in a semi rural unincorporated area with no local restrictions but I know there are some statewide ones I ignore at my future peril as I have done so in the past and will probably do so in the future as well---but with my eyes open.

Edited September 5, 2008 by ThomasPowers

[DocsMachine]

Great, when the 70-year-old man gets his head stuck in the stair railing and decides to sue family, I'll let you say "I told you so".

(Somewhat rude reply removed)

Tell you what- if legal conformity is so important to you, why not suggest a design that conforms to your local laws? I'll bet money they're more restrictive than mine, so that should make it safe, okay?

Doc.

Edited September 5, 2008 by DocsMachine

[metalmangeler]

Hi Doc
It might be a good idea to think about the 4 inch rule as the 70 year old man may not live there forever. Even here the banks do expect railings to be to code if they are loaning money to the buyer. This could be done on the elk design with smaller work to fill in the larger openings. Or it could be done in the other design mentioned pretty easily and certainly you could do it in the traditional design you were thinking of maybe doing, that is one of the nice things about scrolls. Ballisters are also pretty easy to put closer than 4 inches to each other, if they are made of small rod it makes the railing less obtrusive than a wood railing would be and it sounds like you have plenty of small stock to work with and since the frame is made you are really in the more enjoyable aspect of the job now.
I hope you have a good time doing this job.:)

[Frosty]

Doc:

The 4" rule applies anywhere in AK. If he has homeowner's insurance and a visiting grandkid gets hurt the insurance company could well come after you. They sure don't want to pay anything out if they can peg someone else and you appear to have some valuable stuff.

Your call of course.

Frosty

[DocsMachine]

Is it too much to ask just to get a little design help, and let me worry about the legality?

When I built my propane forge, I had people telling me I should skip it and try coal.
When I showed photos of my weld-repaired anvil, I had people tell me I'd ruined the "collectors' value".
When I said I'd extended and repointed my anvil horn, everyone told me I'd better blunt it or I might get hurt.
Every time I post a photo, it gets moved into somebody elses' gallery.

Is it any wonder I don't participate here much? So far I've gotten more help with this project from some guys on a webcomic blog.

Again, can anyone suggest a few simple ideas to get me started? I like the elk idea, but that might be a little complex, especially considering the time frame. I'd had something in mind vaguely along these lines. This isn't bad, but I'm having a tough time filling trapezoidal panels with it. This is a little too frilly. I like the interspersed sharp bends in this style, but it hasn't proved easy to salt those into a new design.

On the other hand, there's the possibility of, as I said before, some Frank Lloyd Wright style geometric patterns. Like this or this. A classic basket weave motif, perhaps. This is classic Wright, but a little too busy, and would be difficult to apply to an angled stair railing. Something like this shows promise, and I tend to wonder if I could pull off replacing the "arrowhead" with perhaps a set of antlers, or a deer or elk profile. Minus the leaves and circular "flowers", this is kind of interesting, but again might be a bit frilly for the location.

Doc.

[Glenn]

Every time I post a photo, it gets moved into somebody elses' gallery.

I can answer this (again) as I was the one that resized your oversized photo(s) to fit the IForgeIron forum. It was placed into my account (as administrator) in the gallery to be resized and then transferred back to your post in the forum. When you brought it to my attention, you did not say which photo was involved so I chased down all 75+ (as I recall) of your posts and each photo that was included in each those 75 posts. There were only two (2) of your photos in my gallery, not to claim them as mine, but to resize them easily and then transfer them back to your post in the forum. I spent quite some time trying to figure out which photos were involved and then more time trying to figure out how to return them to your name and your account. That also was done.

I know of no way your photos can appear under any account but yours. To my knowledge only an administrator has the power to transfer an image from one membership account to another name or membership account. It is not done by mistake, but takes several intentional steps to accomplish the task.

People, at your request, have freely offered their skill, expertise, and experience to provide what they feel are good ideas and safe designs, be it with forges, anvil repair, or railings. They may or may not have the answer to your specific problem, but they are willing to discuss the problem. Please do not fault folks for offering suggestions, or trying to keep you and others safe.

[Rob Browne]

Without getting into the legalities that don't apply here, it would make sense for any design to confirm to the current legislation. Working within that the deer design looks great and would suit the home of a hunter. Maybe making a smaller version within a "frame" of classic scroll work would work.

My tow bobs worth.

[DocsMachine]

I can answer this (again) as I was the one that resized your oversized photo(s) to fit the IForgeIron forum.

-And in resizing them, you removed them from my control. They started out linked from- and tracked by- my personal hosting, and you took it upon yourself to copy them off of my site and onto this boards' servers without my permission.

I notice they're all still there, despite my asking them to be removed no less than three times.

[...] I spent quite some time trying to figure out which photos were involved and then more time trying to figure out how to return them to your name and your account. That also was done.

-In other words just shifting my photos around, but keeping them on your server.

The proper course would have been to inform me that my linked photos were too large, or in some other way violated the rules or general etiquette. I could have altered and resized them all in minutes, with only a few mouse clicks.

I know of no way your photos can appear under any account but yours.

-Then just how did they get copied off my server and onto yours?

People, at your request, have freely offered their skill, expertise, and experience to provide what they feel are good ideas and safe designs, be it with forges, anvil repair, or railings.

-Yessir, and I appreciate that. But this tangent into the legalities wastes their time and mine. Everyone here plays with fire and yellow-hot steel either for a living or a hobby, and I build guns that are designed to shoot other people as my day job. I have a reasonable grasp of what's safe and legal, and if I don't, I can change it.

Here, however, I'm simply asking for design ideas. Not legal help, not safety instructions, I don't need anyone to tell me that black iron can still be hot (at least, not again, anyway. )

But now we have seventeen posts in this thread, and just three of them have actually been helpful.

Doc.

[Falang]

In german, but I think it's the pics that are interesting...

TT Schmiedeeisen von Triebenbacher Schmiedeeisen, M

[DocsMachine]

Wow, very nice. Lots of good ideas in there, thank you.

I'll have to give it a closer look in the morning, but a couple of those show some promise. It helps a bunch to see some of the designs already in an angled stair-rail setting...

Doc.