Rank Badjin Posted January 2, 2023 Share Posted January 2, 2023 Good day to everyone. I am not the forger in the family, that would be my youngest boy. But he often comes to me for advice and as a retired engineer, I do my best. I read a lot on the topic to stay up on tools and methods and rely heavily on posts from people like yourselves. Thanks for being here! Now for the question...he currently has a small single burner propane forge that I bought him for Christmas a few years ago. While suitable for low-carbon and mild steel, it does not get hot enough and is not really large enough for higher quality steels and larger projects. We live in a dense suburban area and the idea of building a "stealth" charcoal/coal forge came to me. I can construct an "outdoor grill" designed to hold a slide out firebox, similar to the JABOD featured in several threads on this forum. He is an accomplished welder and more than capable of building the firebox and tuyere himself...I just need advice on how big the JABOD would optimally be so that I can space the supporting bricks appropriately. The brick "grill" itself will look basically like this with some added fire brick facings in certain areas. I can adapt this for either side draft or bottom draft and could conceivably make the bottom table out of castable fire cement for added safety. When not in use as a forge, remove the forge firebox, put a grill grate on it...and presto! What forge? There is no forge here... Rank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 2, 2023 Share Posted January 2, 2023 Welcome aboard Rank, glad to have you. Has your boy joined the forum? We have lots of youngsters aboard, some pre-teens and up to old folks like me and older. He'd really benefit from reading the bladesmithing sections here, we have a number of world renowned and published authors aboard. He's operating under couple basic mistaken impressions. Low carbon steel requires higher temperatures to work and weld than high carbon. The higher the carbon content the lower the melting and burning temperature. Heating more stock than can be worked under the hammer damages the unworked steel by decarburizing the surface, excess scaling and excessive grain growth (crystal growth). Your idea for a stealth forge is done all the time often in old Webber Grills. You'll need to make the blower / bellows removable and the ports are easily disguised by putting in more ports. Charcoal prefers sideblast air as in the JABOD. A slide in tray with a tuyere would be easy to make. Base it on Charles's JABOD for dimensions and one of the decorative ports in the back wall of the BBQ would make a fine pass through for working the middle of long stock. Another thought is to make a steel hood that covers it all with a stove jack. The front can open, hinged or hung on studs, etc. Put some brackets on the inside and it's a smoker. That explains why you have wood and buckets of charcoal stored in the space below Hmmm? The stack drops in the jack and the front panel opens so you can use it as a forge. Heck, you could have burgers and dogs on the grill while he's heating steel, let the neighbors make a case for it not being a BBQ grill! Put the blower crank or bellows handle on his dominant side, he'll need his off hand to manipulate fire tools and tongs, freeing his dominant hand to grasp the hammer when he turns from the fire with HOT steel in his hand. This is where seconds count. The only thing I don't care for in your rendering is the large foot of the BBQ that screams "TRIP HAZARD" to my cautious soul. He and other people will be walking and moving close to the forge, whoever is hammering steel WILL be holding HOT steel, even if he doesn't fall, a stumble can lead to branding him or an observer. YOU will be watching won't you? Hmmm? If it's going in a permanent location, no problem recess it into the ground and make a smooth walking surface, perhaps brick pavers. Pavers look nice and a smooth level surface is a joy to work on. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rank Badjin Posted January 2, 2023 Author Share Posted January 2, 2023 Thanks Frosty. I have no idea what forums he is on, but I will pass the recommendation along. Oh, and he is actually like 28... I may perhaps have misstated on the steel, lets just leave it at he says "it doesn't get hot enough"... indeed, I have yet to see anything come out more than a dull orange. The JABOD can be made to slide into the top of the brick "grill" I posted the picture of (not my pic, and I get the tripping hazard thing.) I can get metal for him to weld the box out of easily enough, and make another similar one for bottom blown, so he can play with both. Rig the blower so that it swaps to either box. He's still learning, I don't plan to sink a ton of cash into this... What I am missing is actual dimensions for the JABOD, I have found lots of pictures on the forum, but no details. Some versions appear to be only a couple feet, some are YUGE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shainarue Posted January 2, 2023 Share Posted January 2, 2023 Dimensions are going to depend on the size of projects he intends to do. If he's mostly doing blades, bottle openers, leaves, that sort of thing - then a small (bbq grill or smaller) is plenty. If he's wanting to get into sculptures, gates, etc - then he'll need room to pass the metal across. The actual hot part doesn't really need to be any bigger - from what I've gathered on here - but the surface area where the excess metal can rest. I have a little rivet forge and I've only recently started working on projects that use longer stock and they're presenting me with issues in trying to get the section I need into the hot spot. My first forge was a JABOD made out of an old gas grill. I had made a cutout into each side as a pass-through for longer stock. Never needed it while I had that forge, but now I do, lol - so I guess I'm saying to plan for the possibility? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rank Badjin Posted January 2, 2023 Author Share Posted January 2, 2023 Yep. I had sort of figured out that part already. My biggest concern isn't actually about the width/length of the box, but the depth...the dimensions of the firepit plus anything on top of that for the fuel, which BTW, is most likely going to be charcoal, there is effectively NO coal to be had within several thousand miles. I have ideas for water cooling the tuyere, and found the drawing for it on the forum already, I'm pretty certain the four inch square tubing will work just as well and eliminate at least few sources of leaks. Copper for the tuyere? We are talking a foot or two? Overkill? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George N. M. Posted January 2, 2023 Share Posted January 2, 2023 Welcome aboard from 7500' in SE Wyoming. Glad to have you (and your son). I have to disagree with Frosty about placement of a blower. I and most forge manufacturers orient the blower to be cranked with the left hand and the work or tongs to be held in the right since most forlk are right handed. Once the work is up to forging temperature the work or tongs are shifted to the left hand and the hammer is picked up in the right. There may be folk who are more comfortable with Frosty's technique but this is how I have done it for the last 44 years. Yes, your son's single burner propane forge may not be getting up to forge welding temperature or have enough heat to do larger projects. This may mean building a solid fuel forge as you propose or a larger/better propane forge. Also, if you are concerned about smoke and odor for the neighbors you may want to consider coke as a fuel which is pretty much smokeless. It takes more attention for fire management than coal or charcoal but I have used it for years. I used to be in an urban area but am still using it now that I am in a semi-rural setting. It is sometimes difficult to find but I would check out farrier supply places if you decide to go in that direction. I second Frosty's suggestion about your son joining I Forge Iron. I also suggest that he look up and join the Florida Artist Blacksmith Association. It will greatly contribute to his development as a smith. There is nothing like learning from more experienced folks in person. Yes, you can do it by yourself with GOOD You Tube videos and your own mistakes but that is not optimum. I know. I did it that way back in the Neolithic when there was no internet. For videos I like Blackbear Forge, JPL Services (our own Jennifer), Torbjorn Ahman from Sweden, and Christ Centered Ironworks to name a few. Some folk like Alec Steele but I find his presentation kind of annoying but that may just be me. I would say that you could use copper tubing for the plumbing of the blower but keep it away from high heat because it has a significantly lower melting point than iron. If the actual tuyere sticking into the fire was copper it would sag and melt pretty quickly. Tuyeres are traditionally cast iron or steel. BTW, how old is your son? What part of FL are you in? My wife is originally from Plant City and Lakeland and I have a cousin in Boynton Beach and a friend in Naples. "By hammer and hand all arts do stand." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted January 2, 2023 Share Posted January 2, 2023 Welcome from the Ozark mountains, from a former Floridian. You might want to post a picture of his current forge and read up in the Gas Forges sub-forum. Do you remember the mfg. name of the forge? There is usually a reason a propane forge is not coming up to temperature that can be corrected. with a little tweaking and Mikey98118 and Frosty are the best at helping tune them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rank Badjin Posted February 24, 2023 Author Share Posted February 24, 2023 His forge is a single burner "Hell's Forge." He was working on turning a railroad spike into a hatchet last weekend and I never saw the metal get above orange. He needed an extra set of hands to try and crank a bend into the piece so I was holding it for him...I still have the burns. BTW, I am from the Ozarks. What a coincidence. Answering George's question, he's 28, and we live in the panhandle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M3F Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 Reading through the posts it seems like he's looking to reach forge welding temps. That single burner can reach those temps with a little TLC, described in the gas forge sections like Irondragon pointed out. You keep describing the color as orange, keep in mind orange to you may be a different color to me and a completely different color to a 3rd person. If your seeing that color outside in daylight then that throws off that perceived color even more. So in a nutshell God only knows what temps he's actually reaching. What i did was installed a removable thermocouple, addressed the forge by following the gas forge sections here then kept checking the temps on the digital display as I tuned the burners. Now I only use the thermocouple when I want to reach certain temps for heat treating and even then I barely use it as i become a better smith. Following that plan I wouldn't see a need to make a solid fuel forge unless he wants to just have one, or he wants the versatility of it. Lastly I second what George said about finding your local Abana affiliate. I learned and am still learning a great deal through them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 The above two photos are what I based my all steel side blast on. Take 1/4” + square of steal and cut it in half on the diagonal. Cut a strip of the same stock 4x12” and bend to a 90 so you have 2-6” legs. Weld to getter to form a troff. Weld a 1” wide flange around he opening. Measure up from one 90d corner 1-1/2” and drill a 7/8” hole. Weld on a piece of 3/4” scheduled 40 block pipe a 5d down slope for a tuyere. The hearth can be as small as 18”up to 32” ( mine is 32x60 wine the tuyere centered in one half) 4“ high walls 16” long on the sides of the trench can be brick, angle iron, or place welded directly to the fire pot. Note, cut the rim on the hearth so the stock lays flat for charcoal… Le me go down and tack pictures as my loving wife erased my photos… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 Now sa to the right hand blower on rivet forges. As the rivet was heated then thrown to the riveters who caught it in a bucket, turning the blower with the left and trhrowing the rivet with your right made sense. However, for most right hand smiths, moving the blower to the right and reaching over it makes more sense as we hold the tongs in our left hands, this saves us fumbling around changing hands befor going to the anvil. Rivet forges are st up the way they are for a reason, not for continence of a smith forging out of one… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted February 26, 2023 Share Posted February 26, 2023 As to what is better, blower on the right or left, I don't really think it makes a bit of difference. Whatever is comfortable and workable for the smith is what is "right". As for the changing of hands with tongs, hammers, etc., that takes only a couple of seconds and I think the steel will stay pretty much at nearly the same temperature in doing so. If you're going to be forge welding, then just plan ahead for what you are going to be doing with your hands and tools and proceed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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