ASA_Walrus Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 Hello All, This flame was part of my first firing to dry the rigidizer applied to the blanket after 24 hours of cure time. I built a 3/4” Mikey burner ( it’s pretty ugly looking, and definitely could be better), but I’m pretty colorblind, so I can’t really tell what a good flame looks like. Side note: I threw a scrap piece of 1” pipe in there just to see if it’d get hot, and it did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 Be sure that is NOT galvanized pipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASA_Walrus Posted February 24, 2021 Author Share Posted February 24, 2021 It was galvanized, scrubbed with vinegar, I knew about the not so nice fumes though, and wore a respirator, and did this outside. Only thing I had on hand to throw in there. Figured if I was gonna do something stupid, might as well try to be safe about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 Actually there is no safe way to be stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASA_Walrus Posted February 24, 2021 Author Share Posted February 24, 2021 Just checked, was actually black steel pipe, not galvanized. Guess I didn’t need to scrub it with vinegar... or wear the respirator. Ah well, better safe than sorry I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 Welcome aboard ASA, glad to have you. I'll let Mike evaluate your flame, it looks pretty good to me but I have a couple questions about what I'm seeing. You did build one of his burners after all. Are you going to put a final flame face refractory layer in it? Rigidized ceramic blanket will be pretty short lived all by it's lonesome in there. How about you reword the stupid done safely thing to? I knew it was foolishly dangerous so was very careful. We take safety a little too seriously to let jokes about it lay unremarked upon. Hmmm? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 Nice flame! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 What has me wondering Mike, is the little tail off the end that looks almost like it's wavering. The pic caught it tilting upwards slightly. Other than that tidbit I really liked the transparent blue single envelope and what looks to be a soft flame. Did I miss anything Mike? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASA_Walrus Posted February 24, 2021 Author Share Posted February 24, 2021 Yes, I’m doing a few thin coats of satanite, followed by a zircopax + “high alumina kiln wash” blend for a final coat, I was just firing it to help dry out the rigidizer before the satanite coats tomorrow. That’s a fair assessment, safety is priority, and I wouldn’t do something that isn’t safe purposefully, that’s where proper PPE/Environment comes in. I guess the definition of whether an activity is considered safe or not depends on those factors so it’s a bit of a catch 22. My levity with the topic of safety comes from work, tough to make things safer/better when people continually find ways we haven’t thought of to mess things up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 Ya got that right and no matter what size hammer you use, it's impossible to drive common sense into some folks heads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 What kind of kiln wash are you mixing with Zircopax? I'm looking forward to %s and how it works for you. I've been wanting to experiment but am not building any forges for a while. I think we're on the same page safety wise but you were pushing one of Glenn's buttons and we all like to keep Glenn unruffled. Father taught me to do really dangerous things as safely as possible. He was a metal spinner and I grew up in his shop. His shop was inherently dangerous to walk into even if everything but the lights were off. I deal with things that scare me with humor. "You can't make things fool proof because fools are so clever," is one of my favorites. You're going to fit right in here. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASA_Walrus Posted February 24, 2021 Author Share Posted February 24, 2021 I was going to paint 4 sections of the brick (my part contact face) with different blends, 90z-10kw, 75z-25kw, 50z-50kw, and 25z-75kw, but the remainder of the chamber with 90z-10kw. The wear and tear/ color during forging on my part contact face over time will tell me which percentage works best, using 90-10 at first though because I think the zircopax is going to be more critical. If I find the higher zircopax concentration causes fragility, or cracking, I’ll incorporate some of my left over fumed silica rigidizer, which should help blend the solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 2 hours ago, Frosty said: What has me wondering Mike, is the little tail off the end that looks almost like it's wavering. The pic caught it tilting upwards slightly. Other than that tidbit I really liked the transparent blue single envelope and what looks to be a soft flame. Well, you defined it nicely. it looks like complete combustion in a single flame envelope, and is still about as soft as a flame from a "T" burner. I call it a totally excellent looking flame. The little turn upward at its tip simply sells me on it being a soft flame We need to get his burner into the operating room and thoroughly dissect it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASA_Walrus Posted February 24, 2021 Author Share Posted February 24, 2021 So, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, because I love Frostys take on burners, easy, and economical and functional, and I love Mikeys take on burners which favors and efficiency, power, and adjustability , at the compromise of being harder to build. What I think I’ve ended up doing, is making a “Mikey Burner” which due to poor construction, has an end performance more similar to a frosty burner, but was still tough to make. That being said, with the flame looking how it is, and the size of the forge (made from 5 gallon air tank) I don’t think I can complain too much since I should still be able to hit the temps I need. Heres a photo of my monstrosity. The insides of the pipe are beveled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 9 hours ago, Mikey98118 said: The little turn upward at its tip simply sells me on it being a soft flame Okay, my initial thought was right, I just wasn't sure. ASA: I've always been a function over form guy and yours functions beautifully so we're going to analyze it as best we can. Your burner alignment in the forge could be better though. As seen in your first picture the flame is aimed almost directly into the corner between floor and wall. The increased back pressure doesn't appear to effecting your burner much if any. However it isn't causing the swirl to follow one path so it is spreading largely along the channel of the wall, floor junction. You can see the effect by the location of the liner turning yellow at the rear pass through. Where the flame is impinging the liner would improve the flow if it were either higher on the wall or more on the floor. The flow swirling like threads in a nut will prolong hang time in the forge an increase energy transfer to the liner, even over all forge temperature and make it hotter. With your mount it should just be a matter of tweaking the set screws. Easy peasy. If I haven't said it before. NICE BUILD! We'll all be watching to see how your zirconium loaded kiln wash works. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASA_Walrus Posted February 24, 2021 Author Share Posted February 24, 2021 Good to know, I didn’t feel like buying an extra hole saw, so I used a larger diameter and figured I’d plug it with rigidized ceramic blanket, I have a good bit of wiggle room, so I should be able to adjust the angle more down. Additionally, I can curve the refractory when I put it in tonight to help reduce that crease/impingement. It seems like I drilled the hole at a bit too high of an angle. Either way with a brick up front (maybe a door from the cutoff portion once I find the right hinge) I should be okay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 One note: scrubbing it with vinegar won't do much; you need to degrease it and soak it in vinegar for a considerable amount of time to remove galvanization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASA_Walrus Posted February 24, 2021 Author Share Posted February 24, 2021 2 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: One note: scrubbing it with vinegar won't do much; you need to degrease it and soak it in vinegar for a considerable amount of time to remove galvanization. Good to know for the future! Thanks for the info! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 Oh you've put together more than an OK forge, it only needs a tweak here or there. It's a sweet build. Look into building a refractory porch in front of the openings to support longer pieces and incorporating slide rails to hold IFB baffles. Another of Mike's contributions to improved forge efficiency and effectiveness. Thermal baffles beat doors all hollow. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 It is a nice forge, but back to that lovely flame; can we get a peek at the how and why of it? Care to give us the lowdown on your burner build? Inquiring minds want to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASA_Walrus Posted February 24, 2021 Author Share Posted February 24, 2021 I attached a photo above, but I’ll re-attach below for some additional information. First is my ugly burner, poor grinding, and drilling technique and all. Second is the Burner working in free air, which I didn’t add earlier, but may give you some insight into whatever I was able to screw up so successfully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 Quite a difference between the bench test and its performance in the forge!!! You have given me pause to think; perhaps to rethink...if you do something wrong, but it turns out that right, then it wern't so wrong I will have to detune a burner in the forge this summer, and see if I can copy your flame, which I find excellent. Why? Because you have complete combustion in a primary flame envelope, which is nevertheless a soft flame. Choice is very important. Thank you for sharing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASA_Walrus Posted February 24, 2021 Author Share Posted February 24, 2021 Funny enough, between the bench test and the end result, I cut 2” off the end of the mixing pipe get to the length correct. I also cut 1” off the end of my makeshift flare. So maybe that info will help a bit too. Another slight difference is my “flare” , I realized that my 1 1/4” pipe nipple was bigger than expected, so I used an angle grinder to cut ridges into the end, and hammered them to close over the spacer, which coincidentally produced a slightly better taper than just the spacer. Could the not totally sealed ridges which protrude over the spacer, pull in additional air flow around the flame? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 Okay, all those changes explains two entirely different flames, it's a different burner. When you're tinkering with complex devices like a propane burner you don't want to make several changes between tests. Make: ONE change, test, observe, compare, make notes. That way you aren't depending on luck for good results. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASA_Walrus Posted February 24, 2021 Author Share Posted February 24, 2021 There were bench tests between each change, I just didn’t take pictures, at the end of those, primary flame front was hollow but quite small, and was surrounded by a slightly brighter envelope, with flicks of colors (yellow? Green?) At the the end, but it was nothing like what it looked like when I installed it in the forge. The whole flame became that hollow (to me it’s purple), when the choke is opened, and adjusting the pressure from the regulator, seems to only adjust the intensity, and not the colors or opacity, which is nice. I’m pretty familiar with testing and troubleshooting but not on these sorts of systems, I have a pretty solid record of everything I’ve done though and can describe what each thing did if it gives you any interesting information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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