Different refractory options

[Frosty]

That is a T burner sticking out of your forge isn't it? If it is and you built it correctly, choke plates are worthless, like adding nitrous injection to a Tesla. 

Once you tune a T burner correctly all a choke CAN do is put it out of tune. You like the flexibility to go from just right to not worth spit?

The T burner has been developed, debugged for a couple decade with minor improvements. Maybe just use it as designed until you know something about how they work? Once you understand the things you'll maybe come up with something that makes it a better burner.

I encourage folks to experiment and tweak the thing, guys are coming up with stuff all the time. Some aren't really an improvement in performance but do provide a different way to make it work. Occasionally folks come up with a performance improvement. It's all good, if it doesn't make things worse.

The problem with guys who don't know what they're doing coming up with T burner "designs" is they fill the internet with how to videos that lead beginners into making fundamental mistakes like putting choke plates on a T burner. 

If you prefer to base your build on youtube videos or figure it out yourself, just say so I'll leave you to it. No hard feelings.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Juicemiser]

7 hours ago, Frosty said:

Maybe just use it as designed until you know something about how they work?

 I’d be pretty naïve not to listen to the voice of experience here. I did come up with something (or thought I had) however I haven’t altered it thus far; don’t panic! Choke plates on the Frosty T = useless. Check. Thank you. Consider that brainwave crashed. 

This is why I’m here gents. We’re still locked down in ON here for some reason and it’s been tough NOT to go to YouTube etc. for inspiration/advice. I can’t even go physically visit the one smith I know in my area at the moment so I joined this page. 

Thank you again for catching this would-be beginners blunder before I made things worse. I wouldn’t be here if I didn’t want to hear it.

On another note, my refractory came in and it’s time to make a couple bricks before lining the forge! 

J

[pnut]

What are you planning on using for a form and release agent? 

Pnut

[Juicemiser]

For casting bricks, the plan was to use some readily available materials: thick cardboard form, duct taped together and then plastic wrap laid in/over to release/keep the moisture in. It’s what I’ve got on hand... Not sure what’s going to happen with the plastic wrap but I figured direct contact between the cardboard and the mix would yield negative results. 

As for lining the fire box, I wasn’t planning on using a form; I don't see any way of getting a form to fit/release effectively inside of that ammo can. Just going to hand bomb it in there; I’m sure there’s some trick I haven’t heard of as of yet hence the sharing!

J

Edited April 19, 2021 by Mod30
Remove excessive quote.

[Frosty]

I hope I didn't come across too harsh, I see the same mistakes so often I forget it's a new question to you. My bad.

Did the refractory have mixing instructions with it? I doubt you want to mix in enough water to pour it like concrete. Most castable refractories should be called rammed. Just enough moisture it sticks together, if you can pat a little blob in your hand and it either slumps at all or a bit of liquid water flows out it's as wet as it should be. More water will result in a refractory that's less dense and weaker than it should be. I mixed the Kastolite wetter than it should've been, I don't need 3,000f 900lb compressive strength for burner blocks or forge liner. Just a LITTLE wetter is good, do NOT get carried away or the calcite binder will literally wash out.

I made the burner block forms for NARB from 2" x 2" lumber, in two pieces, sanded and Varathaned because that's what I had on hand. My forms turned out to be a lot more complex than as described, see pic below. I don't know about what you bought but Kastolite-30 sticks to ANYTHING, I cut the top off a plastic milk jug and couldn't clean the residue out of it. 

Anyway, I tried wax for a release agent, stuck to it big time.  Saran Wrap got holes poked in it and it all got cemented into the form. My best luck was with grease, I had some really old Crisco and it worked pretty well. I've also had good release results with mechanical lube type grease, stiff seems to work best.

Is the aggregate in the refractory sharp broken material or is it smooth and rounded? If it's sharp (crusher run) aggregate it will NOT pour, you'll have to rod it down or tamp it to fill the mold.

One video I watched showed how to roll it with a heavy duty rolling pin, using IIRC 1" spacers to get the desired thickness. Once rolled he cut it to size with a blade he hammered through to the table. The blade was a modified trowel laid on edge and hammered through. I tried making a couple brickish things to act as door baffles and was fairly successful ramming it in with a mallet and getting a smooth flat surface by laying a piece of plastic wrapped steel plate across the spacers and using a heavier hammer. 

Yes, I watch online videos but I've learned to be skeptical of everything I see.

The first pic is a NAR in the form with a magnetic engine heater stuck to the plenum to keep it warm. The second pic shows the forms after I opened it. the Ls screw to the 2" x  6" base but I had to pry and hammer LIGHTLY to get them loose. For the next pour I greased under the forms so free moisture carrying binder couldn't cement them together again.

That's how I did it. Good luck. 

Frosty The Lucky.

     

[Juicemiser]

7 hours ago, Frosty said:

Did the refractory have mixing instructions with it?

It did not. I’m combining advice from y’all on here and the URC general mixing instructions from their website.

That ribbon burner sure does look involved in the forming department, I hope it’s proving it’s worth in the forge!

This aggregate is quite coarse so tamping was required. I ended up going ahead and filling up that cardboard form. I sprayed some PAM on the plastic wrap inner and tamped it in. For science purposes, I threw three little blobs into red solo cups: one with plastic wrap only, one with the PAM and one with petroleum jelly as a release agents experiment.

The fire box has now received its floor and about a third of the way up the walls. I buttered the kaowool prior to and it seemed to stick well. All is wrapped and tied in a garbage bag with a couple cups of water sitting in there and there’s a space heater nearby keeping everything warm.

Tomorrow night it should be set enough to flip over and pack the roof and rest of the walls in. 

J

[Frosty]

Sounds like you're rolling along. I'll be looking forward to seeing pics of the results.

NARB forge below. The orange dragon's breath is the calcite in the refractory oxidizing the burners aren't out of tune. YOu can also see how the floor sagged when I got impatient and turned it over too soon to plaster the roof. The individual nozzles had residue I hadn't gotten cleaned out well enough. I connected the shop vacc where the T inducers screw onto the plenum and used the air hose to blast fast air up through the nozzles. It's not perfect but the flames are even enough.

I didn't make the porch wide enough to use fire brick for a door baffle, I  use a couple fire bricks to get t he forge off the table and a couple more to make a sort of porch so I can use brick for door baffles. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Juicemiser]

On 4/18/2021 at 7:21 PM, Juicemiser said:

I sprayed some PAM on the plastic wrap inner and tamped it in. For science purposes, I threw three little blobs into red solo cups: one with plastic wrap only, one with the PAM and one with petroleum jelly as a release agents experiment.

The brick came out OK. Some little cavities on the bottom (more tamping required) and I should have made the top look nicer before leaving it to set. Also, petroleum jelly wins for this particular test. A very thin coat and the test piece fell right out of the cup after curing.
 

Not that I know much about them but those ribbon burners look like they’re kickin butt. 

On 4/18/2021 at 7:21 PM, Juicemiser said:

Tomorrow night it should be set enough to flip over and pack the roof and rest of the walls in. 

I waited till last night to do the roof, so as not to get that sagging. Buttered everything up and it went well. I checked just now and it’s looking alright; 

more pics later!

[Frosty]

Your brick came out much better than any of mine. I think I'll go sulk for a bit now. 

Looking good, well done.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Juicemiser]

Wow, Thank you! Must be the pam ;-)

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Pam is basically silicone with a couple of vegetable oils in a spray. Slippery stuff for sure.

[Juicemiser]

A garbage bag was pulled through the chamber and inflated as a quick ’form’ at the end to keep the walls from caving in. The top of the chamber then cured, upside down tied in a garbage bag with a couple cups of water.

 I attached the burner, plugged the gaps with a bit of wadded up kaowool and let er rip; the flame seems to be having a hard time staying stable. Not sure if wind, back pressure or the burner needs further tuning. Next post I will take a few more pictures of it running. 

 

 

[pnut]

The inflatable form in the forge is a good idea. Cheers. 

Pnut

[Juicemiser]

So I slowly ramped up the temperature in the thing throughout the day yesterday. Here is what the burner looks like at ~3 psi currently. This was around 8-10 minutes after lighting it and it took another 5 or so to get a 1/2 round bar of mild steel to orange. Seems slow to heat up and it basically plateaued unless I cranked the gas up more but maybe it’s just me. The unit-cast stayed red for a looong while after shutting down though!

  My question is, could my flame be tuned better or is the kiln wash going to make this thing get that much hotter with less juice?

 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Your video won't load for me, so don't know about tuning it. We usually prefer to see still pictures when analyzing flames. Yes a kiln wash like Plistix, will make a difference in the forge getting hotter no matter the regulator setting. Another thing is being able to partially close off both ends of the forge openings will make a difference in the heat. I don't remember seeing any doors in your pictures.

[Juicemiser]

Here’sa still shot

[Trevor84]

Juicemiser, 1 month down the road, do you have any updates? I just ordered a bag of this Uni-Cast 2800 as well and wondering if there's anything you'd do different next time?

When it comes to the flame..... It's a "Frosty Tee" I tend to get thrashy tips to the flames like that and the extra orange in the exhaust flames could be from the calcium burning off the refractory (iirc). I do believe there is some tuning to do, the greeny blue flame = fuel rich this is also supported by the excess blue in the exhaust flames.

I assume by now you have figured this out in other posts, if not then we need more pics and specs of the burner.... Frosty is obviously the one that knows best on his flames

Great thinking with the inflate-A-form I've been thinking of doing something similar but with spray foam if I ship one.   

[Juicemiser]

On 6/2/2021 at 10:54 PM, Trevor84 said:

Juicemiser, 1 month down the road, do you have any updates?

Trevor, 

Update time: The uni-cast seems like pretty dang good stuff (not that I can compare it to anything else as I’m no expert, it’s the first yadda yadda yeah yeah I’m a noob). I’ve casted four 1.5” x 4.5” x 9” bricks so far and they’re pretty tough; I dropped one the other day onto a patio stone and it barely scraped the corner of the brick! The forge has had a couple of small chips flake off where the cement meets the opening of the can; this I expected so not fussing over it. The flame face looks virtually untouched also; no cracking, chipping, discolouration, melting... nothing. 

As far as the heat factor goes, despite it’s  small size it still does take about 10 minutes  to get everything nice and hot inside but I can attribute the sluggishness of the forge to my own sluggishness (I have yet to put a proper kiln wash). Once it’s hot, it stays hot! I can get a heat back into a worked piece of 1/2 square in about a minute or so. 

When I shut the thing off it takes hours to cool off; I tested this by heating up two pieces of hardened 1” round axle shaft to an orange and turning off the forge with doors closed. Almost an hour later I looked and both chunks of steel still had a slight red glow! The pieces would easily skate a file before this, afterwards the file bit in easily and I was able to get a hacksaw through them fairly quick. 

I’ve gotten the flame tuned in as good as I think I can. Upon lighting, it seems to be running a touch lean and the jet doesn’t form right away (blue flame spreading out on the floor of the forge) but once the forge heats up a little I just choke the airflow with my hand for a second, the jet forms and the air/fuel mix seems good. I’m not getting too much scale or anything so yeah, pretty happy with how it’s running. 

And yeah definitely try that inflate-a-form trick if you’re feeling frisky, it was kinda fun to do and it worked great!

Hope this gives you some insight on what to expect out of that uni-cast.

J

[Trevor84]

Well JM that is impressive like is often discussed here the rep I talked to in the past about unicast swore it would not hold up in less than 3" pours. I figured it should work the same as mizzou for a hot face because they're quite similar but I would not have expected a 1.5" brick to hold up to a drop like that, I've split 1.5" clipper dropping it before. 

 

10 min warm up ain't bad, it looked like you have it fairly thick in there. 

 

I do have a container of ITC 100HT, it's finally come down in price $70cad at princess auto. I also have a bag of zirconia flour to play around with and compare. 

 

Thanks for taking the time for the review ☺ 

What you describe with the flame dancing on the floor is how a couple of my forge burner combos work, once the interior starts to flow the flame slowly gets closer and closer to the flame port. One forge in particular I don't use a flare or nozzle just the mixing tube into the 2" port, there's enough pressure that when hot the flame is literally at the edge of the port basically leaving a cold black spot inside where the burner port is. Hard to take a pic of that. 

[Frosty]

Remember the factory rep you're talking too about refractory has information geared to commercial furnaces like you'd fill with gondola rail cars, not furnaces the size of a large mild jug. It takes more thickness to span large areas. 

Your forge looks good from here.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Trevor84]

It appears that I left out half of the thought. That's exactly what I was trying to say aparantly I stopped halfway through the thought.... It's brought up here often so I wasn't surprised when he tried  discourag me. 

The more a person learns about the stuff that makes up the refractory and how to read the data sheets the easier it is to start seeking out new products. 

There's this pdf floating around Google from Morgan Thermal Ceramics called the refractory handbook or something. It has the data sheets for all their products and has them categorized by type as well as good descriptions at the beginning of each line of product's explain their properties and applications. 

I don't know if I am allowed to post the web link to it though. 

If it needs to be edit out I'll gladly do it. 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.mha-net.org/docs/Harbison%20Walker%202005%20Handbook.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjRm-qjlpXxAhUQu54KHU6pDZ8QFjACegQIEhAC&usg=AOvVaw080BetQ2ggzPyE1nth4YeM

That is a HarbisonWalker pdf I just found, I haven't had a chance to read it but it looks informative. 

Hopefully these li k's to get me in trouble 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.morganthermalceramics.com/media/7699/morgan-advanced-materials_thermal-ceramics-product-data-book-e-version_2.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj838Hgl5XxAhWPxZ4KHe0KDKQQFjAAegQIHRAC&usg=AOvVaw16kGQxha_xxZAZj6K6oYHz

[Trevor84]

Those links are straight to the pdf downloads so if you click on it don't be surprised if it starts downloading 

[Juicemiser]

On 6/13/2021 at 12:56 PM, Frosty said:

Your forge looks good from here.

Thanks Frosty 

On 6/13/2021 at 11:58 AM, Trevor84 said:

Thanks for taking the time for the review ☺

No problem Trevor! 

Check out the “first tongs” post to see some progress