Propane forge problem

[Tracemaster]

I know none of these terms, no I can't disassemble it it's all soldered together.

Looks like 1-in pipe about 3/4 inner diameter. This is the only thing I can think of that you could be talking about since I've already posted pictures of everything else. Again I don't know any of these terms.

[ThomasPowers]

May I suggest you read my previous post where it says you can't tell if the burner needs to be rebuilt or replaced until you get a regulator hooked up to it to see if it can be tuned.  I also point out that it's not a waste as you will have to have a regulator anyway.  I also mention that any 1-15 or 1-30 psi regulator rated for use with propane will work but if it's not so rated it won't.

[Tracemaster]

Here is a video of the burner running in lower light conditions

[ThomasPowers]

So what was the regulator set to for that shot?

[Tracemaster]

I missed the part where you said you needed the regulator to find out if you needed to replace the burner. It still doesn't. It does not have one yet because of this. I should elaborate on the regulator then, if I go on eBay because that's my only way to get a high pressure regulator and purchase one rated for propane doesn't matter brands or anything it should work right?

Hey Frazer why don't you give me this book, maybe I can find a answer to all of the "things I should know but was never taught*

[671jungle]

And quite possibly a nozzle to hold the flame once it gets turned up. The slow flame is due to the valve on the tank restricting flow in case of faulty equipment on a bbq or hose. The regulator will allow a controllable flow that can be turned up and allow the torch to do what its supposed to do. Only then can we determine what else is needed.

5 minutes ago, Tracemaster said:

rated for propane doesn't matter brands or anything it should work right?

right. And if funds allow, A pressure gauge too

[ThomasPowers]

I saw this on amazon for under $13: Gas One 4 ft High Pressure Propane 0-20 PSI Adjustable Regulator with QCC-1 type Hose - Works With Newer U.S. Propane Tanks " this high-pressure regulator and hose is adjustable from 0-20 psi with its red knob and has a top notch output for a wide variety of propane appliances from burners and heaters to smokers and fryers"      of course it's about $5 cheaper than on ebay...

The magic words are "propane" "high pressure" "adjustable"  "regulator" "0-20" 

 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

47 minutes ago, 671jungle said:

The slow flame is due to the valve on the tank restricting flow

Yep, that was my thought a few posts ago. That flame is no better than a pilot light no wonder it wouldn't heat a nail. A regulator will help in getting it running.

[Mikey98118]

Your video gives a quick peak at the 'reducer' you  used. Whatever other problems, that fitting is going to ruin performance.

[Frosty]

Trace: First, do NOT buy a gauge, it's not worth much on a naturally aspirated burner. The only real use is to make it easy to repeat a desired temperature without having to light the forge and tinker till it's right. It will NOT help you tune the fuel air mix or trouble shoot problems. Worse all the people with little or no experience telling you what psi you should try next will only confuse you.

So far the ONLY good advice posted is the psi range of the regulator.  0-20psi minimum and 0-30 psi is better, not because you'll use that much pressure but because 0-30 regs will deliver a  higher volume per second of propane. Forges use a large volume of prop. Do not sweat it if a 0-20 is what you can find or afford, it'll work fine, I run my forges on a 35 year old 0-20 regulator.

Do you have access to a drill press? If so I highly recommend you remove the mig tip from the one you have and put the "burner" in the scrap bucket. It was built by someone who knows as much about burners as he did about forge liners. . . zip. 

One of the real problems is the gas supply pipe welded across the bell reducer "Air Intake" it's blocking a large % of intake air which is a B A D thing. Another real problem is how long the mixing tube is, a 3/4" dia burner should have a mixing tube 6" long though you CAN get away with a LITTLE longer say 7".  

While you could probably make that one work it'd be a lot less work and problem solving to just make a new one. The T burner is as easy to make as I could figure out, the plans are pinned in the "gas burner" section of Iforge and I'm almost always here to help if you have problems.

Also, the forge is a mess that won't survive a decent burner let alone a good one. There are designs and plans for lining a propane tank forge like you have. It's not difficult but will take some time, materials and PPE. AND we're here to give you a hand.

I saw you'd purchased it but was staying out until I had a better idea of what you had. Don't worry, we can get you squared away. You can stop worrying about how much you do or don't know, NOBODY is born knowing this stuff or much of anything and we all had to start from zero. There's nothing wrong with that.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Tracemaster]

Sadly funds are an issue, I can cut the pipe length no problem but building a new burner is likely out of the question, and buying a drill press defiantly is. Right now I'm working on the cheapest way to effectively insulate the forge, and remove the current lining.

As you saw the burner home straight into the tank, will a regulator with a hose hook onto the burner? Also what about the ones without hoses?

[Mikey98118]

A drill press is only needed for precision work, by old guys. Good eyesight and a steady hand is enough for what you want to do. If your cross pipe is made from a pipe nipple it already has pipe thread, which is all you need to mount various pipe fittings, including a hose barb onto.

[ThomasPowers]

Hooking stuff together is a matter of fittings. I was given 2 T burners by a friend and had to buy 1 conversion fitting to get from what was on the end of the hose to what was on the end of a burner.   Of course I had picked up a couple of propane rated hoses cheap at a yardsale still in their original packages---went to a propane heater unit.  Much cheaper than buying the hose and fittings individually. Economies of scale usually means that if you can use something already commonly built, sold and used with just a conversion fitting or two---it will be cheaper!  Just make sure it doesn't have any fittings that try to meter the gas flow by having very small ID's. We meter with a regulator and the burner nozzle!

I prefer to bring in the pieces I need to hook together to my local hardware store and make sure that the everything connects up correctly.  Saves on repeat visits into town.

[Tracemaster]

I thought I would ask since I need to plan trips to these places strategically (hoping that will stop within the next year).

[Frosty]

Asking when you're unsure is a good thing, especially if you're working within limitations. We'll help you get up and running.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Tracemaster]

So I was reading through the gas forge forms and made a discovery, the chamber on my forge is to big for a single burner. So I'm going to have to make a new one. I have made a charcoal forge before or of a metal bucket, but I was wondering if I can go with even thinner metal, say a steel popcorn tin or planters nut can?

[Frosty]

What is the volume of your current forge? If necessary reducing the volume is usually easier than making a whole new forge.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Tracemaster]

My forge without insulation is well over  000 cubic inches, but with 2 inches of insulation it's a touch over 680 cubic inches. How exactly would you reduce the volume besides adding a bunch of insulation? My main concern with the using such thin metal is the weight of the cement and metal i put into it collapsing it. (planning on possibly using just castable cement for insulation due to durability and being potentially cheaper than ceramic fiber).

[Frosty]

Filling the bottom to provide a flat floor will reduce volume significantly.  Use a layer of Kaowool, feather the edges so it makes a smooth transition to the walls. Sure, a popcorn or cookie tin is plenty strong enough for a forge shell. You aren't going to be heating anchors in it are you? 

How do you figure using a solid hard refractory liner is cheaper? Kastolite 30 li is just under $75 / 54 lb. sack club price. The same company throws out Kaowool trimmings and drops by the dumpster weekly and they have two dumpsters. Even paying for it, I could put 3 layers of 1" Kaowool in yor forge for less than the price of a sack of Kastolite.

Also consider the fact that even a bubble refractory like Kastolite is significantly worse insulation than Kaowool AND a strong heat sink, REQUIRING more fuel and time to bring up to forging temperature let alone welding temp, and it will conduct heat through to the room. 

It may cost a little more to do it right up front but a solid cast refractory liner will burn up those savings probably before you empty a 20lb. tank.

Yeah, 680 cu/in will want two, well tuned 3/4" NA burners. Figure about $10 - $15 to make.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Tracemaster]

Where are you getting these numbers from exactly? Last time i bought 1" inch steel pipe (outer diameter) the cheapest you could get it was $12, granted you got 2 feet of it but still. What i will tell you is for the forge and railroad track I paid $50, that was at the time cheaper than buying, and about the same price as making a burner given the resources I had. Admittedly I did not check high temp tools for ceramic fiber insulation, thinking they would be similar in price to ebay or amazon, but i see now they are much cheaper but what about rigidizer? From what I have always heard you need that and a castable cement coating. Cement is heavy so I was mostly concerned about that collapsing it more than the steel, i would just be really saddened if I made an entire foge and insulated it only to put a piece of rebar in and that be "the straw that broke the camels back".

Oh and nipple pies were $10, maybe i'm looking at the wrong stuff, if your saying 10-15 dollar to make a burner.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Have you not read this? All the supplies you need just PM Glenn for pricing.

https://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/254-gas-forge-refractories-and-supplies/

[Tracemaster]

Yes I read it, do you mean pricing for shipping? The next part is irrelevant if you say yes.

I assume you need to pay with card and need to be 18, meaning I would need to convince my mother sign up and put in an order, meaning once she places the order (if I can even convince her to buy off of this kind of website) there is no cancelling if shipping is to high. Also high temp tools seems to be cheaper, and is defiantly more likely for me to be able to convince my mom to buy from since it is a dedicated buying website for blacksmiths supplies. 

[Frosty]

Pipe is measured by the ID and a 3/4" x 6" nipple was something like $4. last time I bought one at the HVAC supply up the road.  It's a real plumbing, furnace and air conditioning supply store, not a big box like Home Depot. I don't count the Tap to make the brass fitting up to the T nor to make up to the mig tip.  I only count tools if they're single use. 

19 minutes ago, Tracemaster said:

Oh and nipple pies were $10,

Is this a typo? Seriously, I don't know what you mean. 

Rigidizer is fumed silica, silica particles so small they are colloidal, once mixed with water they will NOT settle out. Spritz the Kaowool (or whatever blanket you have available) with water, known as buttering. Then spritz the "buttered" kaowool with the mixture of fumed silica, clean fresh water and a few drops of food coloring. (so you can judge how it's covering) 

Once it dries cure the rigidizer with a Bernzomatic torch or 30 seconds maybe (?) with the forge burner. Then apply the next layer of Kaowool and repeat. This makes the Kaowool stiffer so it doesn't compress as easily. Covered with 3/8" of water setting hard refractory and it's a done deal. 

No CEMENT of ANY KIND! Refractory Cements and Mortars are made to stick things together like bricks, they are NOT formulated to be in direct flame contact, especially not a propane flame. Propane is very chemically active, especially as it burns. You can buy small quantities of Kastolite 30 li for reasonable from the Iforge store, the link is at the top of the page.

I've heated 8" long pieces of 2" sq. about 7lbs. in a forge lined with Kaowool and Kastolite without trouble and I have a rather heavy handed friend who makes hammers in it. When we could work in the same shop that is. <sigh>

Frosty The Lucky.

[Tracemaster]

That is supposed to say nipple pipes yes

[Frosty]

Okay. Pipe nipple is the correct term or once we're talking pipe just nipple is fine, say 3/4" nipple. 

Picking up the jargon can be a pain but once you have a handle on it it's easier to talk to folks. You don't have to ask for as many explanations and folk won't have to question you about what you're asking. 

Frosty The Lucky.