New to Smithing

[FergaliciousEarl]

Hey Guys,

I'm new to smithing and new to iforgeiron. I was hoping for some insight on purchase of a leg vise (photos attached I think). The local antique shop has this vice for $175, unfortunately I don't know the size of the jaws, was on lunch break and was just scoping the place out. Any idea if its worth it? or should I pass?

[JHCC]

Hi, Earl. Adding your location to your profile will help us answer your question, as what's excessive in one area might be a fantastic deal in another.

The most important thing with a vise is the condition of the screw. That's not visible in the photos, so make sure you take a look.

The spring is missing and has been replaced with a coil spring around the screw box. Not a big deal, but might be a good bargaining point (no need for you to tell the seller that you can forge a new one).

Check to see if the jaws meet squarely and if their faces are in good shape.

Oh, and one other thing: it's upside down.

[ThomasPowers]

Are those Australian dollars, Canadian dollars, US dollars,...? (WORLD WIDE WEB ya' know...)

What condition is the screw and screwbox?   (For a post vice that's like telling if a used car engine runs or not...affect the price quite a bit.)

Looks like a small one and missing the spring which is not hard to replace.

Anyway that's way too high for me here in the USA; of course I'm notoriously cheap...

Get the size of the jaws and the condition of the screw and screwbox and the LOCATION and we can discuss what a good price would be.

(John; why I was wondering if they were Australian dollars...)

[FergaliciousEarl]

Sorry, about the lack of information, didn't think about adding location or anything like that. Like I said pretty new to smithing and am buying small items here and there for a shop. I was assuming that it would be like a similar to a mechanics vise (i.e. check faces line up and are square, make sure the screw is good, etc.), I didn't have much time since I was on my lunch break to check the thing out and there were other things I wanted to look at.

Location, I live in central Georgia, USA. (Wooo! Covid). Don't know if I'm out of the loop or just don't know where to look but blacksmithing stuff seems to be hard to find where I am.

I didn't notice the spring so I'm glad I put that up. I will most likely go by the shop this weekend or Monday to check other items on the list. I thought it might be pricey, the owner said that he has only sold a few of these since he has had the shop and they go pretty fast (trying to get me to buy most likely). He has a few other things, an old anvil, blower with gear box, and table forge; but they are pretty over priced I think.

[JHCC]

Antique stores do tend to charge a premium on old tools. Because, you know, they're antique. I guess.

My guiding principle on purchases has always been, Will the utility of this tool justify what I can afford to spend on it? If the answer is no or if the seller isn't selling at the price I can afford, I move on.

[ThomasPowers]

Look over the Improvised anvil thread; no need to pay out the nose for an anvil just getting started!  Also look into how the TPAAAT works.  Lots of people only look in the more expensive places for smithing tools and then complain about the costs!

 

 

[FergaliciousEarl]

Thank you for the great advice. Since I am new and don't have a lot of change to spare, I have taken my time to acquire thinks. I have a anvil shaped object that I am mounting shortly but since I saw the vise I thought, "heck let me ask some people that may know." I have lurked this site for a while and decided to join in.

JHCC I really like that mentality, for now I'm not going crazy with my smithing, just trying to learn the basics and get a good foundation. I think this buy could be one I pass on. 

I have a blacksmithing guild in my town, thanks to Covid-19, most of the activity is shutdown. I also am looking to possibly take a week long class at a folk school. I have been interested in the craft for a while, started with just wanting to do bladesmithing but now I would love to learn it all.

[George N. M.]

Dear Ferg:  In the western US TOP dollar for a vise in that condition would probably be $75-100.  That is somewhat dependent on the size of the vise.  How wide are the jaws?  Post vises are more versatile for a smith (fast screw, designed to be hammered on, and can put long items vertically in the jaws) but if you are just starting out a securely mounted machinist's vise will do.  Even a cheap HF/Amazon/ebay one will do while you are building your skill set.

I'd offer $50-75 and walk away if he won't come down.  Then, if you haven't found anything in a few months go back and see it it is still there.  Ask again.  Or leave your name and # with him and tell him the offer is open for X time.

Antique stores often "keystone" their prices.  That is, retail price is twice what they have into the item.  It's not a hard and fast rule but is common.  You could also ask him for his receipt or record of what he has in it and tell him you'll take it for that plus X percent.  If he has $80-90 in it (I'd be surprised) he paid high retail IMO.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."  

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Earl, glad to have you. I think it's pretty spendy but that's antique shop price, not old rusty tool price. It's NOT vintage and unless it's a couple few hundred years old it's not antique. You're buying a tool not a museum or display piece. I don't pay extra for rust, it's bargaining point as are the missing parts. If the antique shop talks about vintage/antique values use the argument for how hard it'll be to find parts. All's fair when you're dickering you know.  Another really important tip for bargaining, do not hesitate to let the opposition know you're ready to walk. I've always felt if your counter offer doesn't upset the opposition, you didn't go far enough. This can backfire though, I've missed a couple great deals by countering too aggressively.

Now you're on the hunt for smithing tools there are a couple few things you should carry as a matter of course. A small pocket tape measure, 6' is on the minimum size but 12' is more than you'll need. A few bearing balls no larger than 1/2". You'll  hear recommendations for 1" bearing balls but more is NOT better, you can carry a few 3/8" balls in a pocket with your change and not notice and 1/2" are comfortable enough. The downsize is how easily smaller bearings get lost on a bad bounce. That's why you carry a couple few and wipe the anvil face off before testing.

The TPAAT works for anything you're looking for from anvils to a good used VCR to play all those old movies. Don't get in a hurry, the only thing rushing does is make your mistakes permanent more quickly. Honest, been there done that.

The bearing balls are for doing rebound tests on anvil faces. Drop a bearing on the anvil face and eyeball how close to the drop height it bounces as a %. Use your pocket tape measure if you aren't good at guesstimating things like this. 10" is a good drop height to guesstimate. Using a BIG bearing is only easier to find it's not more effective nor is dropping it from 3'.

All this stuff is covered on the forum but the site search engine sucks uglyness. However you can use your favorite engine and include Iforgeiron in the terms and it'll list hits here first. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Chris Williams]

For vises, I actually bought a couple (4.5 and 5 inch) on ebay shipped to my door for $80 and less. Just need to watch auctions for a while. One eventually gets missed by the crowd. I don't know why this happens, but I did it with a blower too. TPAAAT (check out the sticky) is the preferred cheap way to accumulate equipment. 

I'm not quite as cheap as Thomas, but am also not prone to paying typical antique store prices for usable tools. The trick is to find the person that has it and either doesn't know what it is, or does know and just wants it out of the way or in the hands of someone that will use it. 

[FergaliciousEarl]

Thanks, Frosty. I have read a lot about rebound on anvils. Studied, followed, and read many a thread on here. I will definitely be caring that stuff with me. I usually keep a tape in my car anyways (dad always said keep tools in your vehicle). I didnt know about TPAAAT but I have a lot of my family looking. My stepfather works all over the united states and he has been on the look out for an anvil as well.  Trying not to be impatient, haha.

Chris Williams, I will follow some things via ebay and see what I can find. I try not to buy from antique stores as well, but that was the first time I had seen a leg vise for sale in my town. 

[Chris Williams]

I didn't say that I don't buy from antique stores; I just don't pay antique store prices!

The auction search could take a couple of months. I just kept my eyes open while I still needed a vice. Now I have 4, and I only overpaid on the first one (locally in person) due to impatience. I've got to make a couple of springs and a mounting bracket, but that is easy. 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

All good advice above. When I come across a leg vise that interests me the first thing I do (with the owners permission) is to run the screw all the way out to inspect the threads and the threads in the screw box. There are quite a few posts here on what they should look like. Then I close the jaws and put a reasonable amount of pressure on the handle (like clamping something) if they are in poor condition it will show up by slipping.

I found three leg vises at a "antique (junk) shop" that they wanted $175 for each. One the screw box was totally stripped out, another seemed good but when I took the screw out the tops of the threads were knife edge sharp and the screw box had been packed with coarse steel wool and when I put a little pressure on the handle it slipped. The third one passed my inspection but was missing the spring, mounting hardware and the handle was a long bolt with a square nut. Pointing out the problems I offered $60 for it. The shop owner said he would check with the owner and after a bit came back and accepted the offer. The missing parts are no big deal to make but are good bargaining points.

[ThomasPowers]

We use the term Anvil Shaped Object for the cast iron London Pattern-ish anvil shaped objects sold nowadays for way too much by places like HF.  We suggest you look for an improvised anvil which may NOT be London Pattern-ish but is made from steel and will be MUCH better as an anvil and cost a lot less---I'm getting them for 20 UScents a pound at my local scrapyard.  Many people get hung up on the London Pattern not realizing that it was common for only a short time and in a rather restricted part of the world; other types have been used for over 10 TIMES as long and in many other countries.

I consider a good condition postvise as a more necessary part of smithing than a London Pattern anvil; but have never paid more than US$75 for one and that includes 4 6"+ ones. (Save the one I bought back from a friend for the same price I had sold it to them.  Covid hardship deal: Columbian 5.5" US$90)