Finally building the forge!!!

[Littleport22]

Here's my first attempt ever at building a forge. I'm obviously not done yet, but I'm pretty happy with the way it's going so far. I can already picture a bright yellow glow in my back yard! Thanks for the help I've gotten so far. keep the advice coming.

For the burner, I have a thread in the welding/fabrication page. I've gotten some good help there too. Anyways, here's some pics.

So far we have the forge mounted on stands, ceramic wool liner installed, and a burner inlet mounted on top. I know the wool looks thick, but it's 1.5 inches. One layer was too thin, but two is pretty thick. Better to over do it than not have enough in my opinion. The cart came from Harbor Freight for $25 on sale. I still need to apply the coating/paste over the wool. What's the best type to use? I also need to build a small platform for the bricks to sit on. In the pics, I just stacked other bricks to test the fit. That's not a permanent situation by any means.

[Dave M]

It looks great and you kept it simple. I like simple, it shows other who are starting out that you don't have crazy money to get going. It lights a fire under my butt to finish my new gasser seeing how I sold my old one.

[Littleport22]

Thanks. I'm trying to apply the KISS rule as much as possible. Whenever I get confronted with a problem, I tend to overthink it. Fortunately, I have a buddy building it with me, so two heads are better than one. Should be ready to fire up by next weekend if I can get the rest of the stuff.

[Frosty]

Looks good so far.

ITC-100 is an IR reflector and greatly increases the efficiency of the forge. However it isn't a rigidizer so the Kaowool will remain very fragile at heat.

I'm glad you didn't remove the warning sticker from the bucket, we wouldn't want anyone falling in and drowning.

Frosty

[Littleport22]

LOL, I thought that picture of a baby playing in a bucket was hilarious. Now it stands for, "Don't let your children play inside the forge!"

[Mike BR]

Looks great. Don't worry about the wool being too thick -- there's no such thing as too much insulation. If anything, the interior volume may still be a little big for one burner (depending on the burner).

Are you going to stack bricks at the back of the forge as well? You'll need to close it up somehow to get a decent heat.

[Littleport22]

Yeah, the back will be bricked too. I have to build a little platform for the bricks to sit on so they'll be good and stable. I'm going to build another forge just like this one, but without cutting the bottom out of the bucket. I'll have this one for long pieces of stock, then the other for small work, so I don't waste fuel making a hook.

[SLOB]

I wouldn't worry about making a second forge with the bottom in it. I just stuff a piece of extra kaowool in the back to block off the opening.

mine is smaller in diameter than yours and has 2" of kaowool.....I wish I had made it bigger and added another inch of insulation. with 2 inches the outside still gets really hot. I have about a 1" air space on the bottom of my forge and then another sheet of thin steel. this keeps anything from rolling under it and hitting the hot outer surface.

I also used the HF tool cart but turned the forge perpendicular to how yours is sitting. the lenth just fits inside and the door opening on mine is just higher than the edge of the cart. another thing I did with my cart is put a bent piece of round rod (1/4" I think) into the rolled edge of the cart for another rack to hold tongs, hammers, pliers...etc

[Littleport22]

Pretty cool. I like the handle on this cart because that's a nice built-in tong rack. Plus the lower shelf is perfect for holding 1 or 2 propane tanks and tools. And it's mobile!

[Littleport22]

Just an update. I finally got a burner put together. My first, so I don't expect any magic here, but I'm pretty happy with it. I put the nipple in a sleeve so it can slide in and out to get a better flame. Stays in place with 2 set screws. The jet assembly was somebody else's idea that worked great. I put a coupler and an end cap on the nipple, then drilled and tapped the cap for a .038 MIG tip.

I do have one question; I see a lot of burners with flares at the end, and some without. What are your opinions? Should I put a flare at the end to make it work right? I wanna get this stuff sorted before I put gas to it and blow myself up! LOL! Thanks guys.

Edited August 6, 2008 by Littleport22

[Frosty]

You would've done well to look at some of the home built burner designs already out there.

From looking at the pic I can tell a few things:

The mig tip isn't well enough aligned down the bore.

It's set much too deeply into the throat.

0.038" is a bit much for the bore dia.

On the other hand I've been wrong enough I'm not going to say it won't work but the only way to tell is put the gas to it and light it up.

Forget about a flare at this point. Screw a coupler or better yet a thread protector (ask at the plumbing shop, they usually give them to you for the asking) on the output end. It isn't a flare but will do pretty much the same thing if not as well.

Frosty

[Littleport22]

It does look funny, but I made sure it's aligned pretty well. Depth was something that concerned me as I'm not positive how far in to set it. That would be an easy fix though. Grind off an inch of the sleve (the first set screw) and pull it back.

What's a good way to tell I have sufficient, but not too much depth?

[Littleport22]

Also, I know it looks like a short burner, but that's because I used a longer holding sleeve than necessary, I'm sure. The length of the nipple is 9", plus the reducer. About 11" in all. And I've heard to set it about an inch back from the edge of the kaowool, so as not to burn up the end. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Littleport22]

So I tested out the burner today. Good airflow, the jet is nice and centered down the pipe, and the propane is shooting out. But there is no ignition. I had it at around 7.5psi. Even opening the valve slowly wouldn't ignite. If I opened slowly and tried to ignite from the jet, it would sputter, then burn out. I am using a Bernz-o-matic torch to try and get it lit.

OK, so is there too much air and not enough propane, or maybe vice-versa? Too high PSI, not enough? Any help is immensely appreciated. Thank you!

[Frosty]

Without being there it's almost impossible to say why it won't light. either too much or to little air can do it though usually too little will produce a flappy yellow flame onn the end of the tube.

I'd try turning the psi down to maybe 2psi and see what happens.

There are ratios for building the things, all are based on the throat diameter. The throat being the narrowest part of the bore.

Bore length 8 or 9:1

Air intake 2 to 2.5:1

Jet setback 1:1 +/-

Alignment needs to be as straight down the center of the bore as you can get it. Pretty good = nonfunctional burner.

Read through Ron's stuff and perhaps try one of his EZ burners.

Mr. Reil's Home Page

Once you have the basic idea there are all kinds of ways to configure these things so long as you follow the ratios within reason. There's leeway in all of them except alignment.

Frosty

[Littleport22]

That EZ Burner looks about as simple as they come. I'll have to give that one a try. Thanks Frosty for the guidance here to a newbie!

[Finnr]

Larry Zoeller's site also has nice simple designs. I am using his modified side arm burner in my new gasser.
Finnr

[Frosty]

Ayup, a Side Arm is a fine ejector type.

Jay Hays sells burners, kits and parts for a linear type similar to the EZ.

Both are good guys to deal with.

Frosty

[evfreek]

So I tested out the burner today. Good airflow, the jet is nice and centered down the pipe, and the propane is shooting out. But there is no ignition. I had it at around 7.5psi. Even opening the valve slowly wouldn't ignite. If I opened slowly and tried to ignite from the jet, it would sputter, then burn out. I am using a Bernz-o-matic torch to try and get it lit.
...

Hi Littleport22. Did you try lighting the burner while it was in the forge or outside in the open? This does make a difference . This kind of burner does not work well burning in the open air without a flare nozzle. I made one very similar to yours. I made a temporary nozzle flare out of a dead microwave oven case. The burning paint and stick on vinyl covering kept it lit so it was easy to ignite. I only test fired it for 10 seconds. After confirming it worked, I removed and lost the test nozzle and inserted the burner into my forge. It had no problem igniting, but it flutters a little at the lowest setting. No problem, I just use a torch if I need it that low (hi temper). It does not need a nozzle to remain lit in the forge. I use a spark lighter which is out of butane to light it, but this sometimes does not work. If it takes too long to light, I use a tiny piece of paper lit with a match. I saw a guy catch his hair on fire when he finally found the tendril with the right mixture to ignite in a hissing BBQ. The fireball was 10-15 feet in diameter, and very loud . I later learned that if the burner is adjusted for stoic, it can have such ignition hazards, and therefore, consumer burners tend to be set on the rich side.

[Littleport22]

OK, so I got ITC-100 today. I thought I read somewhere that you mix it with water to make a thinner paste. Then you spread that mixture on the kaowool. Am I correct? If so, what's a good mixture ratio? Thanks!

Also, I was trying to light the burner outside the forge, so that's a problem. When I get the ITC-100 on, I'll mount the EZ Burner and try it again. I feel confident because the EZ burner really was easy, LOL!

[Mike BR]

When I've applied ITC 100, I just took a small amount and added water until I could spread it with a brush. I don't think there's any specific ratio; if it's thin enough that you can get it spread on the kaowool, it's thin enough.

Looking back over the thread, I'm not positive you caught what Frosty said about the MIG tip being too deep in the throat on your old burner. The tip should end something like halfway down the reducing bell. From the pictures, it looks like you had yours almost in the burner tube itself.

I'm pointing this out largely because you can have the same problem with the EZ burner if you use a MIG tip instead of a drilled orifice. I'm not sure how other folks have solved it. On mine, I threaded a (very) short nipple into the top of the reducer, and mounted the cross tube in notches cut in that.

[Littleport22]

Thanks Mike. I used the nipple mounted across the opening and drilled a hole with a #58 bit like on the website. After seeing other designs, I saw how far down the first design really was and started going after a different one. I'll post pics soon. Thanks again.

[racer3j]

About like heavy cream. You should be able to get three 350-450 ci forge interiors with the one jar. I am going to try some of the adhesives and linings and coatings from cotronics here pretty soon. First I will be using the more traditional kaowool type blanket and ITC100. Then I will be using the 3000+ range stuff because of the two high output Price Shortys I will be using. The forge body is Ellis; so, about 4" working inner diameter and about 13" long. Based on a lot of data , this forge might well be a smelter if I am not careful. A guy named porter(wrote the book) and Reil, and Price and another un-named rascal pretty well established that there is still something to gain with a slightly flared nozzle tucked into the lining for complete ignition in the forge, especially when a reducing flame is used; an oxidizing flame will always look and sound hotter(as when a bit too much O is fed into an O/A torch-you get that hiss and needle pointy cone,) but it is not the ideal welding flame. I believe most folks run their forges reducing(carburising) to avoid adding oxidation, especially when welding- all the flux in the world won't help if you are oxidizing with the forge atmosphere. After all of that wind outa me, the ITC makes a good forge and burner better- it won't make bad ones good.mike( if you ever have a chance to examine a Price Hybridburner,you will have state of the art for a smith's forging needs. I have a T-Rex sitting right in front of me as I type. Just looking at it makes you sweat from the heat blast, even before it is lit.) ANOTHER PS- Rex Price is a very nice man who will take the time to share his extraordinary experience. Even though he has been doing this for awhile, he isn't bored with it and listens to wacky ideas, hiding his gentle laughter. On the other hand, Ron Reil has been so deluged that he bounces email back. I haven't talked to Porter, but I have exchanged thoughts with th other old coot burner fella. He is a hoot-darn, that's owls, he has a dry wit, for a webbed foot coot, that is.m

[Littleport22]

Well, I finally made some mods to the burner and added the ITC-100. Here it is after the first firing. I couldn't be more excited to feel that heat roar out of the forge! Thanks for all the help on this forum. You guys made this possible. I have a 1/4" x 12" ceramic plate that I'll use as a "table" for the stock, but I just wanted to throw this in there to test it out.

[northwolf]

Did anyone try "ROXUL" insulation in a burner??
It's the green insulation, where you an put a torch on one side and NOTHING get to the other side. They show it by putting a hand on the opposite side of the burner. This stuff is easily cut with a bread knife.
Also, would it be of an advantage to put a piece of firebrick inside to rest the material on??