Skullandbonesforge Posted July 1, 2020 Share Posted July 1, 2020 So I had an interesting idea tryed to look up online to see if anyone’s tryed it had no luck anyways I had a 1”1/2 ish a-325 nut and massive bolt inside I cut it flush on both sides and with a stick welder and some 1/8th inch 7018 welded both sides of the nut and ground them clean then I went to the forge and worked it into a piece of square stock but it has many cracks I know when it comes to forge welding there’s a million variables that could go wrong but i have very very little black/blade smithing experience and wanted someone else’s opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted July 1, 2020 Share Posted July 1, 2020 Welding needs a few things in balance to work, heat, cleanliness, compatible materials and pressure Just these things to forge welding, not millions. Other than that I have no idea what you are talking about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frazer Posted July 1, 2020 Share Posted July 1, 2020 Just to make sure I am understanding you correctly. So you threaded the nut onto the bolt, tacked it in place with a welder, ground off the excess on either side of the nut and forge welded the nut and the bolt together? I am going to assume that's what you're describing. I don't know what your forge setup looks like, but I am going to assume it's capable of hitting welding temperatures. One thing to keep in mind is that, especially with thicker cross sections and gas forges, you should let the piece soak for long enough for the heat to get all the way to the core of your material. Just because the outside piece looks like it's ready doesn't always mean the inside piece is the same temperature and it can be very tempting to pull it out and get hammering (I do it all the time!). Another thing to keep in mind is that you are welding cylindrical faces so you want to work quickly and evenly on all sides. A half round swage of appropriate size can help reduce the material naturally wanting to spread out perpendicular to the hammer/anvil face which can open up your welds on the sides at the same time you're making them on the top and bottom. Heavy hammer blows will make this spreading worse, so set the welds first then you can start hitting a little harder once everything is together. You are right, with forge welding there are several things that cause the welds not to stick. However, there is a lot of good info on the forum re: forge welding. This is my personal favorite (you may have to scroll down a bit to read the article). A couple last things. I see this is put in the knife making section. There are 3 types of A325 bolts. Type 1 identified by 3 lines on the head spaced 120 degrees or with no lines (medium carbon steel) Type 2 identified by 3 lines spaced 60 degrees apart (low carbon steel) Type 3 A325 is underlined (weathering steel) None of these materials are particularly suitable steels for knife making as in use they are generally heat treated somewhere between C19-35 depending on the type. Also beware of surface treatments/coatings that are frequently used on fasteners as the oxides can be extremely poisonous. P.s. If you put your location in your profile you may even be helped by someone who lives near you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 1, 2020 Share Posted July 1, 2020 Yes your original billet started with cracks inside it from the screw threads and it's a tricky weld to get them to all weld up as hitting on one side tends to open them on the side 90 deg to that. Using a V block can help as you try to put inward pressure on all sides. A V block and a V top swage may help more. If you look how they used to forge weld rings onto bolts for heads they would wrap a piece around it and leave an opening to allow it to compress and then when welded every where else, weld the opening closed. But why? Not a good blade alloy and not a real interesting pattern for decorative use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skullandbonesforge Posted July 1, 2020 Author Share Posted July 1, 2020 So first of all thank all of you for the insight on the topic as for Frazer yes your right just a big 1”1/2 nut threaded on to a bolt cut flush on both sides and completely welded around with 7018 the forge I’m currently using is a single burner almost coffee can forge but slightly bigger it certainly gets very hot as for the heat however every other failed attempt at a forge weld in the past I think it was from bad welding heat but this time I payed attention flipped it around a bunch making sure it was evenly heated to the point where I had sat back for a second to let it get white hot and I heard the steel pop or crackle that’s when I had decided to take it out for its first welding pass since I welded both sides of the nut and ground it clean I saw no need for flux however it was quite an old and slightly rusted nut and was already tacked on one side so I had no way of taking it off and cleaning the threads and then the inside of the nut mainly I’m hopping the failures were only because it wasent cleaned or prepared correctly I have some more pics I’ll upload in a little bit of what the inside looks like after I cut it and as for why I did this ? I don’t really know I Am always trying different types of Damascus and failing and I figured this idea might be an easier thought I tryed to see if anyone else has done it and saw nothing so decided to give it the old college try Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 1, 2020 Share Posted July 1, 2020 I'd say harder than a small billet composed of flat strips! Rust==oxidation which is a notorious weld killer. Bring a mask and stop by on Friday afternoon and I'll run you through a couple of billets at my forge. (Remember to bring lots of water and a little hydration solution!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skullandbonesforge Posted July 1, 2020 Author Share Posted July 1, 2020 That’s what I was hoping it was pre tacked to the bolt before I got it so I had no way of checking what the threads looked like plus there was obvious surface rust so it’s safe to assume it was rusted thru and thru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 1, 2020 Share Posted July 1, 2020 You're just making typical new guy mistakes: Picking a project WAY above your knowledge and skills, anybody who's done this a while can remember those days. That's okay, we're not gigging you. The next serious mistake is represented in your last sentence above. It's NOT safe to assume things, PERIOD. As for not getting a decent weld you didn't follow any of the important steps because you didn't know. One important thing you didn't know is how useful Youtube is to folk who don't know enough to tell good from BAD information. It's a crap shoot, and the odds are worse than a Vegas craps table. Like welding anything the first 3 rules are: Clean, Clean, CLEAN. Wire brush till the joint is SHINY. Match the joint surface. Good luck getting a nut and bolt to match, especially after brushing off decades of rust. In a nut and bolt situation you'll be upsetting the nut into matched contact which is a pretty darned advanced technique. However you MIGHT get away with upsetting the bolt to match. Not after welding them together and grinding them flush you wont, in either case. Heat, you know. Though soaking a thicker piece while shielded by thinner WILL take considerably longer. Setting the weld means shrinking the ID of the nut to match the bolt and you'll need 90* bottom and top tools or it's going to be silly hard to pull off, especially with a beginner's skill levels. Oh it's doable but is it worth the effort, especially when you take the HIGH probability of failure at your skills levels. It might be far enough out of your levels as to not make much of a learning experience. If you have more, try cutting the nut in half and forging two flat strips, grind the threads off the bolt and forge it flat and make a billet from the pieces. You got enough welded with your last experiment to make this kind of billet a good bet. Make sense? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted July 1, 2020 Share Posted July 1, 2020 I think I remember seeing a YouTube video where a smith shows a trick for forging a ball end finial on the end of a rod. He forges the rod with a standard short round tapered end, then takes a fair sized black steel nut, shoves it onto the taper, upsets the end of the taper and forges welds it to the rod end. Makes for a very slick "upset" finial, but of course he doesn't really care if there are some inclusions hidden at the joint between the former nut and the rod it is welded to. What I'm getting at is that the technique the OP is using may be useful, just not necessarily for what he currently intends to do with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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