diy cast iron anvil?

[molten]

I just built a coal forge from an old Chargriller bbq and melted some aluminum in my crucible to test it.  I have castable refractory (Kastolite) and want to make a mold and cast an iron anvil from scrap iron.  My crucible is small and would need multiple pourings over multiple days to fill an anvil mold.  If I pour molten iron over cooled iron will it weld and be solid?  Is this doable?

[ThomasPowers]

No it won't bind to previous castings and anyway a cast iron "Anvil Shaped Object"  AKA ASO is pretty worthless as an anvil anyway.  Cast steel will work if done right with the right alloy and then heat treated. Just a large chunk of steel will work as a better anvil than something cast from plain cast iron.

Please check out the improvised anvils thread here for ways of getting a *good* anvil inexpensively:

https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/52308-a-collection-of-improvised-anvils/

Note too that the melting point of cast iron is about 1000 degF higher than that of Al; so what worked for Al may NOT safely work for cast iron.

(I've tried to forge on a cast iron ASO before---the anvil face DENTED under the red hot steel I was hammering on. Much of the energy I was expending was wasted deforming the cold cast iron rather than the hot steel.  Never again!  I'd rather forge of rocks!)

[molten]

Thanks for the response.  My forge and crucible supposedly can handle up to 3000F, so I think I can melt steel too.  But I would still need multiple pours. As a blacksmithing noob, I'm having trouble accepting the prices on good new anvils. I'll check out the improvised anvils...

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Welcome aboard molten... Have you read this yet?  READ THIS FIRST  It will help you get the best out of the forum. I second everything Thomas has said. Trying to cast iron in a small forge will be an exercise in futility. How about some pictures of your setup, just not too large ones.

[molten]

Here's my homemade forge/foundry:

[ThomasPowers]

Don't get caught up in the belief that you need a London pattern anvil. They have been around a fairly short amount of time (around 300 years) and used in a fairly small area of the world; where pretty much a cube of metal with a spike has been around 3000 years and has been used all over the world!

At my local scrapyard I can buy an 80# chunk of steel for US$16 and have an anvil bigger than viking swords were forged on!  We are surrounded by large chunks of nice steel---things like bulldozers are made from improvised anvils and broken pieces from them work quite well.

Since you are in the USA; stop by my forge next Saturday morning and we can go get an improvised anvil at my local scrapyard---they have stuff from small to HUGE currently on hand at US 20 cents a pound.

[molten]

Thank you for your insight, Thomas.  I''m sure you have saved me time and trouble.  I'm now reorienting my anvil project to modifying a large chunk of steel.  I'm planning to take a quick hike across the country next week and will try to stop by.

[molten]

Sorry, the photo isn't as small as I thought it would be.  I selected low res on my phone but it looks sorta big to me in the post.

Based on the information generously provided here, I'm planning a trip to the metal yard to buy a block of steel.  Based on 100lb anvils I see, I'm thinking 5"Wx10"Lx12"H would work.  I'm now planning to cast a base about 4" high base to set the steel block in and weld metal legs to the base.  I'd like to buy the preferred specific type of steel for a basic"medieval" anvil so I'm planning to go to a steel yard.  I just don't yet know what the preferred type of steel is.

[ThomasPowers]

Well medieval anvils would be made from real wrought iron, the Bessemer/Kelly process introduced the modern steels we use today back in the middle of the 19th century.  So you can pinch hit with a block of mild steel and work harden the face.

One of the issues is: they were forging real wrought iron back then, which is dead soft at it's preferred working temp! You almost certainly will not be and the "modern" steels are harder under the hammer at their working temps.  So you may want to keep an eye out for some medium carbon steel to make a tougher "modern medieval" anvil to work modern alloys on.

To go purist medieval you will need to source real wrought iron, hard to find in large sizes and forge weld a block the appropriate size out of it---striker(s) or tilt hammer needed. Or and this is rankest heresy and I expect the Smithing Inquisition to show up at my doorstep within minutes of posting this---find a totally trashed old anvil or piece of an old wrought iron bodied anvil---one missing horn and heel and face, you used to be able to buy them cheap---my 1828 William Foster was only US$15  and use that as the "preform" for forging your medieval anvil.  (I also have the *base* of a PW with everything missing above the waist that was used as an anvil after the tragic accident as it shows the mushrooming from such use.)

(Got my Laurel in the Middle Kingdom for blacksmithing around 15 years ago; been in the SCA for over 40 years now.)

[Nobody Special]

I LOVE my 1816 Foster.  If you can find them, you can often get them for next to nothing because the forge weld breaks on the horn or heel.  Paid $75 for mine, and it has a ridiculously wide face.  Junkyard anvils are definitely a great alternative.

If you are truly interested in casting iron or steel, you want to look for a hobby group that does it specifically. Melting steel can be done in a forge in small amounts.  Ask anyone here that's burnt up a bar.  Casting steel or iron though, not something to do at home safely or well without a lot of expensive specialized equipment and knowledge.  Finding a group helps with the learning curve, and I'd recommend it for most casting anyways, including aluminum.  Casting injuries...hurt.

You also would probably want to build a furnace for casting.  Heat sources for casting tend to make poor forges, and vice versa.  Mr. Powers also tends to be a great source of knowledge regarding almost all esoteric metallurgy.  If he doesn't provide the info directly, he'll point you at a book and show you how to do an interlibrary loan.

[molten]

As a matter of possible interest, I am posting the results of my preceding inquiries and the valuable responses.  Impatient to start hammering, I abandoned making my own anvil and bought a 35 kg Peddinghaus and made a stand from bolted lumber and angle iron, a design copied from pics on this forum. It's a small but decent anvil that could probably be resold for a decent price to upgrade someday.  I tried to fold and forge-weld a piece of flat iron with limited success. I brazenly disregarded proper beginner humility and attempted to hammer a section of lawnmower blade into a knife which cracked and failed disastrously.  I wanted to take a shot at it just to get me thinking about the task. Starting with the right material could be important, huh.  And I made a couple S-hooks which are actually useful.  I also melted some copper pipe in the crucible.  It was all quite enjoyable.  I'll probably make some forging tools next like a crucible pouring tool.

Also, I wanted to comment on the tuyere.  Next to the S-hooks is the pitiful remainder of the original black iron pipe tuyere after melting the copper.  I mean, I knew such tuyeres were considered consumable, but that one melted in one day!  So, I degalvanized (in vinegar) some steel pipe and poured Kast-o-lite into a can around the pipe to make an insulated tuyere.  Shown in the pic is that tuyere after one blacksmithing session which included coke so it could have been fairly hot.  It seems to be holding up but we'll see how it looks after using the crucible with it.  I figure it will probably still melt but am hoping for a lifespan of weeks or months rather than hours .

[JHCC]

First of all, congratulations on abandoning your earlier idea. As a friend of mine said to me once (possibly quoting someone else), 99% of strategic thinking is learning what to say No to.

Second, good choice on the anvil. Reputable manufacturer, decent size, good design. You may find that you never replace it, even if you do end up adding another anvil or seven.

Third, your forge leaves a LOT to be desired, but it's an easy fix. Look up the threads on the JABOD (Just A Box Of Dirt) forges, and fill up the bulk of your BBQ with dirt. Trust me; you will be much happier with it, and you won't be wasting fuel.

Finally, how are you regulating the blast from your blower? I don't see any kind of valve or speed control.

You've made a decent start, and with a few simple tweaks, you should be tearing right along. Good luck!

[Goods]

Molten, just a recommendation on you s-hooks:
Start with the length of stock you need for the size hook you making (keep in mind that the section the will be tapered will approximately grow in length by about 2x). Then taper one end square. Once the square taper is drawn out, round it up. (Alway draw out in a square cross section, the go to octagon by hammering the corners in, the bring to round.) Then, start a small roll on the point. Just light taps off the side of the anvil, flip an knock the start of the curl back toward yourself to finish it up. Quench this small scroll, it will burn easily being thin, so starting colder that the rest of the stock when going back in the fire will help a little. When up to temperature, bring it back out quench just the scroll (to avoid deforming it), and hold the scroll up just of the anvil and tap it down to start this end of the hook. Keep feeding the material off the anvil to continue the bend. You’ need to flip it over and bend it back toward you after a little over 90degrees. Repeat with the other side, but trace the curve of the first on the anvil to match the second side.

Doing hooks this way will really help develop several different skill sets: tapers, scrolls, bending, forging to specific dimension (match both sides in this case), fire control, hammer control, etc.). As you make a couple, compare the results as you  go and try to make each one better than the last. They also make a pleasing, graceful hook, that will sell if is an option for you.

I’m not trying to belittle what you have achieved (which is pretty cool), just trying to help you get to the next level...Picture below as an example.

Keep it fun,

David

[molten]

Thanks for the feedback.  I appreciate the insight offered and am putting it to good use.

JHCC, I will dig in my backyard today to find clay soil to fill in the bbq space.  I thought the forge seemed too big and will be reshaping it into a smaller elongated bowl.  I will also cut notches in it to heat long material.

Goods, I will use your detailed S-hook manufacturing description as a guide to refine my primitive hooks into more aesthetic forms and hopefully learn some real blacksmithing skills while I'm at it.

[Goods]

Believe me, I’m not trying to be negative about you first hooks! I would love to say that you should look up local blacksmith group and spend sometime working with them. That’s usually on of my first recommendation, because it made such a big difference for me (and my sons). That’s not a option now, in the current situation, so I just wanted to give the same try of input I would give a new person visiting our groups hammer-in. Unfortunately, I can only really use the written word (not really my strength)  here. No where near as good as watch you a giving pointers first hand.

Keep it fun!

David

[molten]

Goods, I took no offense at all.  I appreciate the detailed description you took the time to write.  I will truly use it as an instructive guide.  I don't pretend to have blacksmithing skill yet and can use all the advice I can get!  Thanks again.

[Goods]

Not sure if you’ve watched many videos, but the YouTube channels linked from the references section here are really helpful and well vetted.

David

[molten]

Regarding air flow control, the blower has a sliding window on one side but the control seems course and airflow seems high even with it closed.  I may have to get a  controller to vary the fan motor speed.  I took a more ambitious swipe at an s-hook with a little style.  Not symmetric but it does look like it was created to be an s-hook on purpose.

I dug up clay from my yard and reshaped my forge to have a fire bowl.  Much nicer.

[JHCC]

Much better. You could make that hollow even smaller, about the size of a cereal bowl or half of a medium-size cantaloupe. Remember, you only need your fire to be big enough to heat your workpiece; everything else is just wasting fuel. 

[Goods]

Can you rig up a lever or something to make it convenient to turn the air blast down between heats. You’ll save a lot of fuel that way, and if it not convenient, it won’t get used.
Your hook has a really smooth taper and nicely rounded out! I can’t even see hammer marks. Symmetry is hard and will come with time and patience, but I think you may have found your calling.

David

[Frosty]

You're doing just fine, the folk chipping in are making good suggestions. Your last S hooks are looking better though you'd be surprised how many people will buy S hooks that are just bent without any forging. 

You need to rig up a way to move the air pipe away from the blower so only a small part of it's output is entering the pipe. Charcoal takes very little blast, a yard sale blow drier is several times too much air for much larger projects than your hooks. An inflated plastic bag taped around 2 soda straws with a couple paper back books pressing down on it would make enough blast to forge your hooks.

Think I"m kidding? Give it a try sometime, you'll be amazed.

Frosty The Lucky.