Need help ! need help fast !

[Valentin]

I tried 18mm square same awful result

Ant way this is where i am now ... the picket is not made by me but the die is ......5 minutes ago i got back from the shop no more sun light to see i'll be dressing it better tomorrow a few more hours.... The dies at the present form. Do u think that much of an angle can be the reason for my problems as in picture 2 ...(i plan to fix that to but it is a problem in the groves caz i can't put the 90^ angle and see the light)

Edited July 18, 2008 by Valentin

[Glenn]

Use some modeling clay and press the dies by hand. This way you can figure our what the problem is without having to fuss with hot metal.

[Valentin]

Good tip glenn have to try that ! 10x

[Frosty]

Are you saying the same dies worked on a different power hammer, run by a different smith?

Or is this a product of a different set of dies?

If the first question is yes then either your hammer is out of alignment or loose somewhere between the tup and bottom die. OR you're doing something wrong and that can be something really small. Something that wouldn't make a difference on a simpler part.

If it's the third possibility we're back to wondering what's going on.

Glenn's suggestion is where I'd go if it's not the hammer or smith. Modeling clay is a very useful modeling tool for the smith all round.

Frosty

[Valentin]

Nope ... the picket was made on other dies , different smith and other power hammer...(that's what i use for inspiration )
I have also redone the fish tail fitting of the dies ...1st time they where made with an angle grinder and they where a bit loos. (call me a dreamer for using a frinder to make this dies and hope to work )

[Frosty]

We can always hope eh?

If the dovetail (fish tail) was loose that'd explain it in one.

I'll pipe up if I think of something else but I can't see a reason the dies don't work from the pics.

Good luck, I'm pulling for you.

Frosty

[Glenn]

Put the clay into the die, form the clay, trim any excess clay moved outside the die openings, and then take that amount of clay and reform it into the size of the stock bar. This should be a good volume needed measurement.

When you use the modeling clay, start with the same dimensions as the steel. Put the clay in the dies and press in stages (much like the hammer blows), opening to inspect what is going on at each stage. Watch the way the clay that is moved in the die openings.

Form without turning the stock, as well as form with turning the stock and see the results. Try turning in both directions, one left, one right. Oil the die with baby oil so the clay can slip and slide easily, as well as act as a release agent. May want to use a release agent when you use hot metal for the same reasons.

[Valentin]

Tomorow i go into production with this pickets ... 1st test with the newly regrindet dies here is how they came out ... i am still not 100% happy about them but i think it's just the hand of the forger that needs some practice...here is the outcome... Any last minute ideeas about imporvment ? keep in mind that i started forging without removing any part of the material... I'll have a movie tomorow of how this is forged

Edited July 23, 2008 by Valentin

[metalmangeler]

Hi Valentin
I seem to be sporadic enough that I had not seen this before, and now seems like to late to be any help.
For future projects I think you could make dies that work on the diamond or V by taking a master and forging the dies over it, you will need to use a method of keeping your dies aligned. On smaller dies a spring die I am unsure if it would work that large but I sure don't see why not. With closed dies you would need to grind relief around the edges so you could forge out the flashing. Just some ideas, hopefully by the time you read this you will be finished and have a pocket full of cash.:)

[John B]

Hi Valentin, It seems I am having difficulty with your problems on this one. your sample being shown from the dies has apparently gone from square (original) to faceted/roundish. And I am an infrequent powerhamer user, and feel like I am trying to "show Granny how to suck eggs", so feel free to ignore these ramblings if you think they are not valid.

I have made vaguely similar shapes under a fly press to produce square items for wall lights etc, and found that they work quite well to produce a square or round feature, the key is to keep them in line, (work up to an end stop if possible and this will push the excess metal in the same direction.

Rotate slowly with frequent light blows rather than trying to do it in a couple of strokes, working down to the finished size, particularly easy for the round version, not so for the square.

From the last two pictures, The marling around the edges would indicate that the relief/shape of the die is too sharp/square at that point, and the workpiece is not consistently located, and also the die profiles are too deep, the evidence for this being the thin diameter end on the finished version, which in turn would indicate the dies are the wrong size for the profile being formed, Try a smaller section bar to prove this.

Other observation is this type of "picket" I would consider to be a central feature on a bar, not an end picket, and the dies are designed by the manufacturer to produce that, although they can be succesfully used in other applications.

Finials were produced traditionally by drop stamps and the excess flashings sheared off with a second stage stamp, or they were produced with fullers or between swages nowadays 'smiths do similar work on powerhammers, which works well for the swaging process, not so well for the drop stamping.

It is always a problem trying to copy others dies and getting the same results, mainly because of the unknowns of material size and if any preworking was done I would not think preworking is appropriate in this case if they are used as the manufacturer intended.

To sum it up I think the main problem is the material size/die profile ratio which is causing problems, one way around this would be a two stage operation, preshape the bar to a suitable dimension, necking it in to reduce the amount of material where required. (Without getting a "hands on" its difficult to be more specific).

I hope this hasn't cofused you more, and Good Luck with the job.