Valentin Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 (edited) I really need this things to work especialy tomorow ... i worked on this die for so long now ...and here is the problem ... the picture says 1000 words the thing is that the dies ar not offset and i am turning the peace every 2 hits ...is it my tehnique that's a problem ... the lines don't alline up . Up aliines with down and left with right but up with left does not ... if u need me to be more specific i can try to ... any way here are the pics with the picket and with the die Edited July 16, 2008 by Valentin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 I don't know what to say Valentin, I can see how the dies don't match without looking at the pickets. When I do something like this I tack weld both dies together and grind the profile across both at the same time. I don't know how you'd get it done by tomorrow though. A shortcut might be to only use half the existing die (yeah, cut the offending part off) and reverse the picket to get the rest. Getting it properly indexed so it matches will still be a problem but presently the problem is hardwired into the die itself. Good luck Buddy. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike-hr Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 I like Frosty's thought about cutting the die in half. When you hit something, it gets longer and fatter. The way the die is currently constructed, theres a problem with keeping crisp lines as the metal flows. I might also try making an adjustable stop for the far side of the dies to give you a positive place to hold against. You may also consider doing several pre-fullers to let out material before using the good die for just a few finishing blows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Thomas Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 Valentin: Can you put a "stop" somewhere past the dies? Push the picket to the stop, forge carefully with the picket perpendicular. That will establish the top and bottom. Rotate 90 degrees and forge the other two sides. Don't try to forge too deeply on the first pass because the metal will move and change the distance between the stop and area you want to forge when you do the sides. You are just trying to establish the location at first. A few gentle hits will make an impression on all four sides. Then remove the stop and forge to the depth you want. As you forge more deeply, continue rotating so you bring the bottom up to the top, which will let you examine how well things are lining up as you go along. The metal has to go somewhere when you squeeze it between two dies like that. Some will go to increase the length of the picket and some will go out to the sides. So when you turn the picket frequently, it herds the metal entirely along the length. However, that means the metal under the die is moving away from that spot and when you hit again, you hit a different spot. The end result will probably be a distortion of what you are trying to accomplish with those dies, but it might still be useable and attractive. Another slower method might be to fuller one of the bands all the way around a picket before forging with the entire die. That way you have a visual cue and a "catch" to set the picket on to line things up. I never forge pickets on all four sides with that complex a die. For compound impressions, I do them in stages with simpler dies, for just the reason I stated above -- the metal moves and you have to move with it. I see that as I typed this, others already posted advice with the same concerns. Hope this helps. Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valentin Posted July 16, 2008 Author Share Posted July 16, 2008 10x for the fast reply ... the problem is not that the dies don't line up they do ... just that in the picture it;s a flatbar benith them and that's keeping them at an angle(the flat bar is a helper to alighn the stock paralel to the die...it's a rest on one side). Frosty: I did the dies as u sayed weldet them toghether and then grinded as one... cuting them into half i don't think will solve the problem the caz upp and lower is alined just up and left is not look at the schetch that i made. Ed... Mike: i know others are doing the same picket on a bought die(from a factory) without fullering you can buy the die from glasser(company) the ideea with a stop in front crosed my mind ... it's just that the stock it's quite thick 35mm. that's 1,5i nches i think and the concern is that after the 1st 2..3 hits the material will start to get longer and that will make my ,,stop'' witout a point... but hey that's my last resort ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valentin Posted July 16, 2008 Author Share Posted July 16, 2008 I have never roled the stock on all 4 sides just worled 2 of them do u think that can be a problem ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Leppo Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 Can you make the end stop work for the second hit only? Have it pivot on a pin, put it down for the first hit, put it up for the second. I would think that when the first hit is done, the material will grow to where the stop is, so maybe it doesn't even have to pivot, but there's head-room between the stop and the end befor you start Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valentin Posted July 16, 2008 Author Share Posted July 16, 2008 Hmm i don't know the trick is in that ''stop'' i think but when and how to use it well that's a second story. I use the STOP on the 1st hit material will grow... on the second hit if i use the STOP the material will be longer and autmtatacly will be unalined ...using it for the second hit ...it's an ideea ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Caradoc Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 can you make a die set that works all 4 sides at once? each side of the die is a V shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hofi Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 Valentin your problem is the flow of the steel to much steel is moving along the bar take off some of the steel in the two INNER neckes less steel will ''flow and you will be ok I HOPE VERY MUCH THAT IT IS CLEAR when you forge do not turn 90 degrees turn turn 45 degrees one little knock guide yourself in and then turn another 45 until you have deep channels to guide you HOFI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valentin Posted July 16, 2008 Author Share Posted July 16, 2008 (edited) Is this what u mean ? when u say inner necks ? won't that change to much from the form of the picket ? Edited July 16, 2008 by Valentin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hofi Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 Not on the dies on the steel hofi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valentin Posted July 17, 2008 Author Share Posted July 17, 2008 Ok well i went with the die to my uncle who is a machinist and has a few mills in the shop and took the levels on every up and low of the die for perfect alighnment and did most of the leveling posible on the mill...It wasn't mutch offset thow but now is 100% leveled done with a machine not with my hands and with the angle grinder tomorow time to test and see if any improvment ... if the die is perfect than probably the forger has a problem :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Valentin: I think Hofi's right, you need to remove some of the stock where it's cross section is being reduced to keep everything aligned. Once the deep fullers across the ends of the feature are set there is no room for the excess metal between them to go when that part is reduced. It HAS to go somewhere and it's pushing the fullered features out of position. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valentin Posted July 17, 2008 Author Share Posted July 17, 2008 Hofi may be right and i completly understand his point but it's 2 mutch time consuming for one peace (to grind or pre fuller or whatever neded to get the exces material away)and time is money and that will exced my 2,5 USD/peace money limit. maybe i'll be doing it on a press(second option) more control of the presure ... i don't know but it has to be one operation job.I thought about it all night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daryl Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 (Frosty, I hope I am not speaking out of turn here) I believe what Frosty means is to utilize only one half (lengthways) of the die. Even so, the material changes legthways as it is worked. A solution would be to turn the material after every two or so hits, rather than complete two sides and turn to the other. I would have tried to make the dies as two v's. Construction of the dies would have taken much longer, though the operation may take less in application. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Ask a hurry up question and the first answer comes in one hour, followed by 16 posts from 3 countries and 4 US states in just 24 hours. Don't forget the 242 views. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Ask a hurry up question and the first answer comes in one hour, followed by 16 posts from 3 countries and 4 US states in just 24 hours. Don't forget the 242 views. And don't forget of those 20 odd answers at least 25 opinions were expressed in typical blacksmith fashion. In truth, this is my favorite aspect of the internet and why I prefer E-mail lists or fora. They're inhabited by real live human beings who usually have a day job we almost never hear about. Until that is, someone asks a question that overlaps into their mundane lives, then we get a pretty high quality reply(ies). From there a person can do further searches to fine tune the info and further an education. I love the net and all the yahoos inhabiting it. (Well, most of the yahoos, I'd rather the vandals and other bad guys :mad: would stay home but. . . ) Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 (Frosty, I hope I am not speaking out of turn here) I believe what Frosty means is to utilize only one half (lengthways) of the die. Even so, the material changes legthways as it is worked. A solution would be to turn the material after every two or so hits, rather than complete two sides and turn to the other. I would have tried to make the dies as two v's. Construction of the dies would have taken much longer, though the operation may take less in application. you most certainly are not speaking out of turn Daryl and you have it how I meant it. It's good when what I say makes sense to someone. Thanks for the confirm. The idea was to work from the finial end first so the excess is free to lengthen. Then do the inboard half. The excess will only be able to move in one direction as the path of least resistance. The end fullers will index it and prevent distortion. Hopefully anywho. Ideally this would be a closed die operation in two steps. First forming the shape on the diamond as has been suggested. Second to remove the flash. One two form die in the hammer and just a few blows from a power hammer. It'd be fast, Fast, FAST. Unfortunately probably not applicable in this case. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valentin Posted July 17, 2008 Author Share Posted July 17, 2008 (Frosty, I hope I am not speaking out of turn here) I believe what Frosty means is to utilize only one half (lengthways) of the die. Even so, the material changes legthways as it is worked. A solution would be to turn the material after every two or so hits, rather than complete two sides and turn to the other. I haven't been working only on 2 sides i always took turn every 2 hits. I started thinking completeing to sides than turning to the oter 2 ....but i think that will offset my peace complelty I would have tried to make the dies as two v's. Construction of the dies would have taken much longer, though the operation may take less in application. The die made as to V's shape that's a chalange that can't be done in my shiop.Or maybe it can but i am not up to doing it Ask a hurry up question and the first answer comes in one hour, followed by 16 posts from 3 countries and 4 US states in just 24 hours. Don't forget the 242 views. And this is all 10x to you Amazing i know And i thank you all for your support and ideas . Glenn your words fit like a glove to this thread and u got me thinking Tools do not make the blacksmith, the blacksmith makes the tools Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hofi Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Valentin U do not have to grind. u may use a lathe if u have it .taks minuts. or pre forg with nerrow dies on the air hammer Hofi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valentin Posted July 17, 2008 Author Share Posted July 17, 2008 Tomorow i get the dies back ... and if it does not work i won't have any other choise than use the lathe to make the groves... it's proably a bi cheaper than forging it ... Check this out(my inspiration) http://www.glaser.de/fileadmin/download/maschinenkatalog07.pdf Page 109 the die is presented in the lower left side of the page and i bet they don't do the picket in 2 steps ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hofi Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Valentin there is a big difference from forging round and square with the round they start with a smaller calculated OD steel and while forging part of the mass is been upset and Because of that less steel is flowing outwards may be that your air hammer is not big enough Hofi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valentin Posted July 17, 2008 Author Share Posted July 17, 2008 (edited) I don't know if the hammer is or not big enof but defenetly bigger than the hammers that thyey sell the die for (the bigger that they seem to have for sale is a 50Kg) nine is at least 80...90kg 12kw electric motor(They got a 5kw) and in the die specs of the die it says that they use round or square 30mm stock ... have to try round as well can't wayt for tomorow ... i'll be posting the pics of the progress or ... downfall ps : just read the specs of the die ...it's ment for GSW 51 OR GSW 60 That's theyr 51 and 60kg air hammer Edited July 17, 2008 by Valentin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Valentin: You said you're using 35mm stock not 30mm. Adding 5mm to a piece of stock that size is a significant amount of extra material to get out of your way. Also, rd. is only 78% the volume sq. is. so if you're using 35mm sq instead of 30mm rd. you're trying to make way too much material go away. 30mm. rd. stock is 706 sq/mm. 35mm. sq. stock is 1,225 sq/mm That's nearly TWICE the material the dies are sized to handle. Try some 30mm. rd. I bet it'll work fine. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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