JLP Blacksmith Teaching Center.

[Mike BR]

I'm not sure whether it's due to legal requirements or environmental pledges or what, but used cooking oil hasn't gone away.  I was just reading a newspaper article about theft from restaurants. But the most interesting thing is that in some areas used cooking oil now sells for more than virgin.  Leading to some folks trying to pass off new oil as used . . . 

[Frosty]

Purolator stacked element filters have not only been around since before the turn of the last century they're still used. Have you contacted Purolator about new filter elements? Things have changed about them, especially the shell, fittings, etc. but the innards are pretty much the same. Well, the last time I opened a new-ish one in the mid 80s on our drill rig hydraulic system. AND promptly replaced it with a replaceable single element canister filter designed for the type hydraulic fluid we started running in it. The stacked element filters couldn't be changed without dropping half a gallon of dirty oil and if you think the "ecologists" on the East coast are rabid you should've experienced them here. That's a whole nother story though.

That brings up the thought that you'll want the correct filter elements for the oil you'll be running. 

If you can't find them, no biggy change the whole filter. Bear in mind that while restoring machinery is an excellent thing, if you want to USE it some things will have to change. No?

Once again I'm glad I don't travel the same circuits you do or I'd be pretty hard pressed to pass up something like that for $100. I tell Billy the same thing every time we start talking about his latest acquisition. Once word gets out a person collects things before long they start appearing in the front yard when the sun comes up. 

Believe me I fought that tendency for years, actually had to get nasty about it a couple times. One knucklehead actually bought a brand new anvil for me and got his feelings hurt when I said, "Thanks but it's not a real anvil," an made him take the cast iron ASO with him.

Frosty The Lucky.

[jlpservicesinc]

Mike, where there is a will there is a way.. Around here in MA all the cooking oil is recycled.. The restaurants are given credit/cash towards new oil. 

Frosty I won't be changing out that filter.   These old filters with the scrapers are getting rare and they work a treat.  I don't need pleated/folded paper filters to clean the oil.   I'll run it thru my filter system, then thru the centrifuge so it will be perfect and only needs to be concerned with chunks if the transport vessel has some chunk on the bottom. 

What is missing is the oil pressure regulator assembly..  

I will come up with a metering pump  so will be able to control the flow of oil for a given heat value. 

My furnace in the shop uses a metering pump and with the Clave used oil burner I burn 0.5gph and it heats the shop very nicely. 

I have excess oil this winter so it's a good time to try it out. 

What would you recommend for bricks and mortar? 

[Frosty]

Contacting Purolator was my suggestion. I certainly wasn't suggesting putting a paper filter element in it. Rare doesn't mean they don't make elements to service it.

A centrifuge should take care of any chunks, even if they have the same mass as the oil. Not being as fluid will force them to the center and they'll settle out. 

I assume you know I'm a fan of Morgan Thermal Ceramics (MTC) K-26 insulating fire bricks but I have no idea how they'd hold up in direct contact with molten iron.

MTC makes refractories for the foundry industry I'd suggest contacting them for specifics re brick and mortar including the closest maker and outlet. The refractories are made to specification by various manufacturers. HWI is who made what I have available here, I don't know about where you are. BUT HWI is a fair bet. Maybe Mikey knows or has a link I haven't looked in a few years.

Frosty The Lucky.

[jlpservicesinc]

Thanks Frosty..   I hope to get it fired in the next week or so and then will see what are the next steps.   Chicken and egg kind of deal.  

 

I am always excited about items that I find and the reason I purchase them.  Lots of projection/desire and then reality. 

It's been 37 years in the making so whats another few months, years.. 

[Frosty]

   The egg of course, what laid the egg that hatched the first chicken wasn't QUITE a chicken. A person would have to draw an arbitrary line to make that stick of course, it took thousands of years of selective breeding to develop what we think of as chickens.

I look forward to seeing your melter working again, I have a thing for seeing old stuff in action.

Another few months or years? HAH, it ain't over till we are. As long as I can think and imagine it continues.

Frosty The Lucky.

[jlpservicesinc]

A little more progress..    I have such an amazing shop/school..   I needed some pipe nipples so made some. LOL.. 

Here is some progress..   I've added a no-drip quick connect and a pressure gauge before the filter. I'll add a pressure gauge on the out port of the filter as well.. 


This way I'll always know what the pressure differential is and what the pressure is at the burner. 

On the school furnace I have a gauge before the pump (showing vacuum), after the pump (showing pump pressure) and at the burner (showing what is going into the nozzle aka line pressure).    

It's interesting seeing the pressure differences on the lines when I add a new batch of oil to the feeder tank. 

I can dial it in with just a few turns of the dial on the metering pump based on what it reads at the burner.   1psi to 1.5psi is what is needed at the burner for correct burn.  everything changes with each batch of oil. 

At the tank it shows the level of vacuum,  and at the pump it shows how much pressure is needed to get the 1-1.5 at the burner. 

[Frosty]

Knowing the vac numbers to draw oil from the tank and the other various pressures in the system would let you calculate output and control it with exquisite precision. IF you were using a consistent oil. Used oil on the other hand will NOT be consistent. Heck even if it were brand new the heavier the oil the higher the energy content per weight / gal. Used oil will have contaminants that usually lower the energy content but not always.

Not the above makes much difference for melts, you'll need to stay on top of it anyway.

It's the realistic value of all the metering, you'll have better results fine adjusting it by eye and ear.

Frosty The Lucky.

[jlpservicesinc]

Right on Mr Frosty.   Used oil does have a variance of BTU's..  It typically is considered to be 140,000 btu.  As you pointed out it can be slightly higher or slightly lower. 

Having the gauges laid out the way they are it really shows the difference between batches. 

On that, over the last  4 weeks I have been organizing and today was another large push.   It's amazing how moving just a few things really opens up the space. 

I figure it will be about 4-6 months to get it fully organized and now that my demo season is over I can devote more time to it. 

[jlpservicesinc]

I was able to get the furnace fired today on used oil.  I will need to experiment and determine the optimal ratio of air to oil and the ideal oil pressure. 

I had 25psi going into the filter, but I'm not sure what was going on after that.. Need to put another gauge in.. I bought 2 gauges, now I think I might need a 60psi gauge before the filter.   A 30psi after the filter should work fine. 

 

I also need to pick up a metering valve.   I will run a pressure supply tank of oil for the time being until I can figure out a reasonably priced setup with a metering pump.  I just remembered I  have an adjustable air regulator so might go that way. 

time was short for testing so will visit it again this week. 

I got some sputtering when there was to much fuel and air.  I was trying to get the flame front to come back to the burner. 

 

 

I don't like the design of the burner arrangement. 

Ideally the air tube should be coming into the top of the burner vs the bottom. 

The oil that pools in the burner is going down this pipe.. 

So I will redesign it so the pipe comes in the top of the burner as designed. 

[Frosty]

Air tube? Do you mean the air supply port? This is run off compressed air yes? I think the detonations (sputtering) are caused by the compressed air being either too high psi or too fast. What this kind of sputtering means in a NA propane burner is too fast a propane jet, it keeps blowing the flame out but is not moving fast enough it won't reignite.

A flame like a T burner or your oil burner is actually a controlled explosion like a rocket engine. It must have a high enough velocity it won't burn back into the burner's guts but can't be so fast it blows the flame away from the nozzle. 

My first adjustment would be to the air psi, turning it down by SMALL increments until the flame burned back. Then increasing it by SMALL increments until I was getting as good a flame as I could.

THEN try adjusting the fuel flow. Same routine, down, then up.

Once you get it close alternate between air and fuel. 

But, remember what I say so often it's hard for me not to say I say it all the time. Adjust ONE thing at a time and take notes.

Frosty The Lucky.

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning,

Depending on the Oil, sometimes it needs to be pre-heated to get it to flow. Diesel has good flow, Cooking Oil with no Fat is not bad.

Neil

[jlpservicesinc]

Hey Neil,  yes, yes..   The used oil burner on the furnace has a preheater..   The centrifuge has an oil pre heater too.. 

In fact that might be a great idea..  Install a preheater on the oil line..    I'll keep that in mind.. 

The burner flowed oil and it atomized at the higher air volume..  At lower air volume, the oil globbed into the air stream.  Having it hotter would help this.  For start-up and/or low fire conditions. 


Frosty, the spec sheet has the burner nozzle right up into a housing with the nozzle/cone right at the firebox.  It looks like there is no way for air to come back around the burner. 

Oil pressure via the manual:
2-10psi at the burner. 

25psi light oil, 35psi heavy oil pressure to regulator. from there it's dropped to 2-10psi. 

[Frosty]

Air coming back around the burner? Seeing as you addressed me with this reply I have to ask where that came from. Burning back is the flame burning back into the nozzle and I listed the two main reasons I'm familiar with and the solutions. First how to determine if either are the problem then how to tune to correct. 

It sounds like Neil has it right. The thick used oil is not atomizing in the airstream. Droplets, (globs) would account for the sputtering nicely. 

Right now you have a problem other than pressure. It is I believe a viscosity issue that preheating might solve. If not you might have to dilute it with diesel or kerosene to a consistent viscosity.

THEN adjust for temperature.

Frosty The Lucky.

[jlpservicesinc]

So it turns out the inside air diverter was slightly loose.. The screws were backed out some.. I believe this is where the weird oil spattering was coming from. 

I have started work to relocate the burner to the recommended orientation. 

I also looked into the burner opening where the flame shoots into the unit and it is not round. 

It's all jagged and misshapen and has some jagged ends poking into where the flame should be. 

[Frosty]

Does one of these pics show the "jagged" part?

Frosty The Lucky.

[jlpservicesinc]

 

sorry, no I'll post a photo later.    It looks like they did not create a round port..  Just kinda stuffed what should have been a round port with paper or the like and used that as a form. 

there looks to be 4 screw holes with threads and there were only 2 screws. So will insert all 4 screws too. 

[Frosty]

Oh, you mean the burner port in the melter not the burner! You see a lot of half donkey slop in things like this, the boss probably had the janitor do "something."

You see that here a lot, somebody asks for help solving a problem then argues with the answers, often saying something like "it doesn't matter," so I just stop trying to help.

When you get a break get a pic I'll see what I can think of. It's possible you could make it close enough with a drum sander or old hole saw and save having to chip it out and reline the port.

Frosty The Lucky.

[jlpservicesinc]

Frosty yes, that is exactly it.  Heres the photos of todays work. 

I disassembled the burner and piping..  The manual recommends a top air feed position.. 

With the air feed coming in the bottom all the oil that was not forced out of the burner collects in the bottom of the air tube and when the air is started it makes a mess. 

I will make it adjustable in all directions, up and down, as well as in and out. 

Not quite sure how I'm going to do this yet as it's vague in my mind.  I did install the uprights..  Thinking I might do something with U bolts around the air feeder pipe..  The pipe is 2"

[Frosty]

Oh yeah, the burner port looks like it was just slopped last time it was repaired. It looks like the refractory is pretty broken down anyway. 

Did you know "Kastolite-30 li" was actually formulated as a furnace refractory for industrial melters? The company I buy Kaowool and such from recommended a sack when I asked about my old stand by Green Patch hard refractory. 

Kastolite 30 is MADE for what you need repairing that burner port. The downside being it isn't really a castable it's either a gunnite or trowel application refractory and it doesn't trowel easily. I developed a couple tricks if you decide to go with it.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[jlpservicesinc]

Thanks for the info on the refractory..  I know nothing about it in terms of what model or type is good for what. 

In the old days all I knew was it had to go in very dry and packed..   That was back in the 80-'s. 

I'd love to hear your tricks..  I'll have to save my pennies and buy as savings allow.  

I have decided to move the blower assembly as well.  I don't like that the intake is just above the ground about 4". 

So I'm going to make a raised mount and have it so there are less bends going to the burner.  

I tore the fiberglass oil cover someone had made and will make a new alum cover.  I hope to cast it.. The oil seal is toast too. 

Will see how that works out or if another route is taken. 

I think for the time being, I'm just going to grind the throat to smooth it out and get better flow. 

[jlpservicesinc]

Tonight I was finally able to separate the blower assembly from the body of the furnace. 

Tomorrow I will get it mounted in a much better position and then start of the gear cover. 

[Frosty]

Interesting, that looks like a roots type blower, does it have 2 multiple vane "paddle like" fans, one on each shaft that mesh in the middle? Visualize 2 stern wheel paddle boats with the paddle wheels meshing like gears. Yes? The motor drives one shaft which connects to the other by a gear. If so it's a roots type blower and can develop pretty high pressure.

Ever see a dragster engine explode blowing the bug catcher (air scoop) and mechanism under it sometimes hundreds of feet in the air? That is what happens when the cam chain or gear breaks and the valves don't open so the engine driven blower develops enough pressure to blow off the top of the engine from the intake manifold up. There is usually a ball of fire, bits and pieces flying, sometimes rolling dragsters maybe running into the other car and so on. The crash trucks and ambulance rolls, the announcer gets excited, everybody crowds the fence for a better view, etc.  It's one of the things that make going to the drags so much fun. 

If anybody out there in Iforge land used to spend time at the San Fernando dragstrip give me a shout out, I may have stamped your pit pass or sold you a hot dog and suicide at the snack bar. Good times. <sigh>

That can't happen to your blower, the electric motor will just stall, dragster engines tend to develop upwards of 6,000 hp, more now days I'm sure, I'm decades out of date.

Anyway, if it's a roots, mechanically it's pretty straight forward but it all needs to move smoothly in time and not rub. 

I don't see the air intake, is it on the bottom of the blower? If so it shouldn't be a problem moving it elsewhere, it'll just be a matter of making the motor and blower secure and plumbing the air to the melter. Closer is better but not a must. 

I don't recall, what are you planning on melting in it? It makes a difference with refractory. Some metals need to be melted in oxidizing atmospheres, some in reducing which effects high energy chemistry and yada yada.  I know people I can ask, it's not like I actually know all this stuff you know. I wrote a note so I'll hopefully we'll connect, he's always busy.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning,

The Blower may be from a "Jimmy Diesel" (Detroit Diesel). or, It was Pirated before it got put on a 'Top Fuel Engine'. I am 'Blown Away' with the versatility of Mr./Mrs. Roots. Make Pressure, Baby!!

Neil

 

[jlpservicesinc]

Neil, The Roots type blower is very neat.. I stumbled onto them this past spring with the "Yellow Bellied sump sucker"..   dual fuel oil sucker. 

I made great progress between yesterday and today.  I had to do a redesign, which was ok since things were only tack welded. 

So much better now.  It' starting to look legit.. 

I have to move the uprights in the back.. I had measured one end and it turns out it was not square. 

This will lead to getting it plumbed and then I can start to work on the oil lines and gauge arrangment. 

I'm pretty happy with how it's going.  I'm not as fast as I used to be with thoughts and designs so start up takes quite a bit more but once I get going it reminds me of few years back. 

Not sure if I like how that clamp works.. It's a little flimsy for my taste. 

with all the extra material and tying all the braces in, it's much more stable.