150 pound Hay Budden.

[GreenMt.Forge]

I recently found a Hay budden Anvil, weighed about 150 before the faceplate broke off. Out of interest, I wanted to know the age of it. The serial number is 74345, located on the front of the base, under the horn. I'll try and post a couple pictures here as well. Also, regarding the busted face plate, I plan on forge welding a new hardened steel plate on the top.

[Steve Sells]

wont matter if the face is hardened or not after welding it will need re hardening good luck

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Welcome to IFI... I suggest reading this to get the best out of the forum. READ THIS FIRST

[GreenMt.Forge]

6 hours ago, Steve Sells said:

wont matter if the face is hardened or not after welding it will need re hardening good luck

I am Aware of that, what I meant was weld a tool steel plate to the face, then harden it.

[njanvilman]

That serial number puts it in 1901.

[GreenMt.Forge]

4 hours ago, njanvilman said:

That serial number puts it in 1901.

Thank you, help is much appreciated.

[C-1ToolSteel]

Do you have experience forge welding (or even heat-treating) items over 100 lbs? Even the most experienced smiths on here would struggle to accomplish such a task.

I see a very usable anvil that could easily be ruined by a failed attempt at re-faceplating!

 

[ThomasPowers]

I suggest you watch the video of when they did that at SOFA and they took 4 tries and had a team with over 100 years cumulative experience.

If you can find it also look up the videos on "cajun blackened anvil" where a group tried to forge weld on a new face and ended up burning up the body badly.

[GreenMt.Forge]

I have very little experience forge welding, I wanted to get a group of guys together and have a sort of "barn raising" type deal. There is a blacksmith nearby with many years experience. As I'm fairly young and being mostly self-taught/youtube/book/trial and error i wanted to find someone who had more experience.

2 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

I suggest you watch the video of when they did that at SOFA and they took 4 tries and had a team with over 100 years cumulative experience.

If you can find it also look up the videos on "cajun blackened anvil" where a group tried to forge weld on a new face and ended up burning up the body badly.

I have watched every video I could find on the subject. I'm also very fortunate to have more than adequate tools for the job as far as the heavy lifting and fabricating goes. I also have made friends with several old farriers/blacksmiths in the area. I promise I wont ruin the anvil, if the forge welding is not going to work, I have asked my neighbor who is a professional welder if we could weld a hard surface plate on. Even then it would still need to be heat treated. 

If I never try something that involves taking risk, how will I learn? The best teacher is failure in my experience. Though I strive for success, failure is always there, waiting for me. 

Edited April 5, 2019 by GreenMt.Forge
Wanted to add something

[ThomasPowers]

Have you read up on the PROVEN anvil repair method of Robb Gunther and Karl Schuler?  It's been used for over a couple of decades for anvil repair by folks who are real pros.  I have been to a couple of ABANA Affiliates'  Anvil repair days, including one where an anvils current owner had milled the face perfectly flat and smooth and too thin to use!---5-6 hours of welding and grinding by a fellow who taught welding and used commercial equipment---and the G/S process!

The lure is great; but reading the 100+ year old advertisements where anvil manufacturers offered such a service indicated that even when that was the common method of facing an anvil the skills were not easy or widespread---they were advertising to professional smiths after all!

I have an anvil I would like to traditionally rework---might have ended up being the SOFA one; but I moved 1500 miles away with it. I also have other anvils and not a whole lot to lose on this one---bought it for US$15. I plan to remove the original face left and forge a fur-trade blade from fur trade era steel! Just did the flour trick and I read 1829!

Postman suggested that I weld the face to a plate of real wrought iron and weld the wrought iron to the wrought iron body of the anvil. He says that WF often used rather coarse WI in their anvil and the weld would be easier that way.  (I have WI plate and steel faceplate materials; now I need a team of anvil hooligans...)

 

And yes I do forge on it from time to time even though I have multiple anvils in better shape---so it won't feel old and abandoned and useless.

[GreenMt.Forge]

6 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

Have you read up on the PROVEN anvil repair method of Robb Gunther and Karl Schuler? 

No, I have never heard of that method. I will look it up, any info on this is super helpful and I appreciate any input at all. I don't know why I didn't join a forum like this years ago when I was just starting out on my piece of railroad track.

[ThomasPowers]

No need to quote the whole post (especially pictures!) if you will replying near to it.  Some of our member have slow internet access and so we try to save bandwidth for them.  

Have you located an ABANA affiliate up there yet; or checked when CANIRON will be on your part of Canada?

[GreenMt.Forge]

I have not. My welder/fabricator neighbor buddy says I should have the remaining face milled off, leaving a nice flat surface to weld a qt400 plate on afterwards with the stick welder.

[ThomasPowers]

Full penetration weld (good) or just around the outer edges (BAD!)?

[GreenMt.Forge]

The plan was to bevel the plate about 1 inch in on each side and fill that with weld. The face is about 3 inches across. That was also my concern but he seems to think it would be fine. 

[Frosty]

Ayup, and that's good example of how an experienced professional welder ruins a usable anvil. 

Clean the base metal and use a quality hard facing filler rod and cap the last 1/2" with a steel on stone hard facing rod. Run FAST low amp beads and you can lay more than two deep but not many. 

If you just HAVE to remove the remaining face, mill the foot flat first so the face isn't ground kattywompus. Doing this to it will make pre-heat and post heat less critical but won't make it go away.

Frosty The Lucky.

[GreenMt.Forge]

Thank you for the input, Frosty. That's what I'll do. Don't wanna wreck this beauty.

[ThomasPowers]

Well you were about halfway there: To Add a plate:  Place a piece of sq stock down the middle of the face lengthwise and clamp the preheated plate to it and the anvil leaving two equal slots. Then start welding up one of the slots from the middle out on one side.  When it is good and fixed in place, grind out the piece of sq stock and weld that slot as well till you come to the edges.   Heat treat.

Most folks I know just do the build up like Frosty mentions.

Many welders and Machinists ruin good anvils as they may be Masters of their craft; but are clueless about blacksmithing and how anvils are made.

[GreenMt.Forge]

Yeah, and regarding the heat treat, what temperature would produce the best result? I've read about 1500-1550 would be ideal.

[ThomasPowers]

DEPENDS ON THE ALLOY!   Like saying how high should I turn the oven to?  I hear 450 degF is good----if you don't know what you are trying to cook it's useless to answer such a question.

Also Deg C, Deg F or Deg K?  Remember that over 100 countries participate here and they may NOT use the same measurements you do.

[GreenMt.Forge]

Farenheit, Thomas Powers. I have chromium alloy hard surface rods. But I will get whatever is best. I'm reading on this every day. 

[ThomasPowers]

So not a flat plate being welded on?  If those rods don't equate to what the Gunther/Schuler method calls out; I'd think long and hard about using them.

[GreenMt.Forge]

From what has been reccomended on here it's looking like just welding a hard surface filler on may be the way to do it. If I can't find the same rods as were mentioned in the Gunther/Schuler method I will find what I can with similar rockwell. 

[Frosty]

On 4/6/2019 at 10:58 AM, GreenMt.Forge said:

I will find what I can with similar rockwell.

This is a mistake! What you need is impact resistance NOT rockwell hardness. Matching rockwells can get you into the situation of using a hardfacing rod intended for wear resistance rather than taking a hammering. Same goes for build up rods.

Frankly most build up rods intended as underlayment for hard face rods are as good or better for repairing anvil faces than most hard face rods themselves. 

As a general rule of thumb there are two 2 types of hard face rods. "Metal on metal" or "metal on stone".  and to be a little more specific you want metal on stone rods intended for rock crushers.  The rockwell isn't real high, usually tops out under 60 but it has a high degree of deflection resistance. Meaning it doesn't dent if you turn a 12" dia. granite boulder into gravel with it. 

The metal on metal rods are intended for wear resistance say track pads on dozers they don't take impact damage, they have 12 tons of steel grinding on steel with grit between them. Impact deformation isn't an issue. More than a single pass and it tends to spall when you hit it, it blows chips so to speak.

Locally I can't get the Stoody rods recommended by the Gunther method but the local welding supply carries an equivalent product. The same jobs as done with the Stoody rods are done everywhere and equivalent products are available everywhere. A little searching online for the Stoody rod spec sheets will help the counter guy at a WELDING SUPPLY get you what you need. Oh heck just give him the Stoody rod numbers.

NO, do NOT expect a big box store to do you any good at all, you MUST go to a REAL welding supply. They'll also have all the info you need to heat treat the ROD, not the anvil the welding rods. That'll be bead depth limits, optimum cool rates and no go limits. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[GreenMt.Forge]

Thanks, Frosty. I'll find what I can. I've read on the stoody rods more, I hope I can find them or similar impact resistant/work hardening rods.