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Brojay775

Vertical up Welds

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Quick question. I've been arguing with some rookie welders about when to use uphill welds. I've always been told that anything supporting weight, ( structural) needs vertical up welds. Right or wrong???

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I'm no welder, but I've heard the only time to do vertical down is with thin sheet metal. Everything else (structural) up. Heard it's difficult to do, and my attempts have born out this premise.

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Like anything else, it depends on the governing code. The AWS has NO pre-approved procedures for downhill welding, EXCEPT E6010 on pipe.

But many large US companies have done the required engineering to write up and document their own proprietary weld procedures. All it takes is time and money, and somebody qualified to sign the document.

What happens in the rest of the world, I can't swear to.

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1 hour ago, John McPherson said:

But many large US companies have done the required engineering to write up and document their own proprietary weld procedures. All it takes is time and money, and somebody qualified to sign the document.

ISO Certification brought about an increase in the documentation of procedures, not only in the Welding/Fabrication field but I all fields, the Semi Conductor Industry went wild on it !

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the down side using vertical say like a 3F, welds is that you are fighting gravity and in order to not make the weld puddle drip, you have to run a cooler weld as well as change your torch angle to a more extreme angle to use the arc to help support the molten puddle.  That reduces penetration and obviously wont have as much strength as a horizontal weld like a 1G or 1F.

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On 7/10/2017 at 11:39 PM, f18framer said:

the down side using vertical say like a 3F, welds is that you are fighting gravity and in order to not make the weld puddle drip, you have to run a cooler weld as well as change your torch angle to a more extreme angle to use the arc to help support the molten puddle.  That reduces penetration and obviously wont have as much strength as a horizontal weld like a 1G or 1F.

you are wrong there sir, 3F weld with a 1/8 7018 run it at 115 and keep it 90* in and you'll get the same amount of penetration as if doing 2F with out having to run as high of an amperage due to the fact that the heat is going ahead of the weld. as for 1F or 1G you have to crank the amps way over to achieve the same amount of penetration. the only one you really have to worry about is anything overhead. also 1F an 1G are in the flat position not horizontal, any thing out of flat position is easy to get penetration on due to the heat is working for you not against you

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i was talking more along the lines of TIG welding not stick.  il take your word for stick.  my certification for stick only required me to do a multipass 1G.  never really messed with vertical welds with that.  i do know that you have to change your torch angle for vertical welds and that does have a effect on penetration.   

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Rick S   

I've welded quite a bit with TIG, mostly stainless, but also mild steel, cast iron and mixed alloys, ie mild steel to cast. I try to make my welds flat as they are easier to do and have the nicest result. So if it's an option, you might consider rotating the parts prior to welding. I go as far as rotating a trailer while migging it during construction. And yes, I can weld out of position...

Dumbest welding story. Back in school while welding overhead, my arm caught on fire from some slag. The bead was so nice I wouldn't stop. The class gathered around to see why I was screaming.

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14 minutes ago, Rick S said:

Dumbest welding story. Back in school while welding overhead, my arm caught on fire from some slag. The bead was so nice I wouldn't stop. The class gathered around to see why I was screaming.

I don't have anything useful to add to the discussion but I have a 'catching myself on fire' story. I was asked to help out in the gate shop at work one day and I obliged them since they needed the help. I didn't take into account that my pants were more than a little tattered and frayed. In less than 90 minutes I'd already caught my pants on fire 5 times. The first time I didn't think about it at first just thinking one of those random hot sparks burned into my pants and was on my leg. I finally figured it out when the guy next to me hit me and said "dude you're on fire!" Supervisor offered to find someone else but I reminded him he didn't have time to train someone new just for an occasional day. I made sure to keep an eye out the rest of the day for sparks and made it home without any more trouble. 

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Lou L   

I only know two things about vertical up welding:

   1.  I am astoundingly bad at it.

   2.  Jody from the YouTube channel weldingtipsandtricks makes it look easy.  Seriously, he is amazing.

 

Ive never heard of anyone doing vertical down stick welding.  I assumed it wasn't down because you can't control the puddle.  I look forward to learning from this discussion if it goes that direction.

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bubba682   

Actually Lou vertically down is pretty easy its also called down handing alot of guys will fill large gaps with it then go up hand over that.Once you learn your heats and a few tricks most welding isn't that hard it just takes time to learn.

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The problems with downhill welding are (1) lack of penetration at the root of the weld from moving too quickly, and (2) not so much the size and liquidity of the puddle of molten metal, as it is the viscosity, of lack of it, in the slag. Some E6010 rods are made especially for downhill welding, and are a staple of cross county pipeline work. Solid wire MIG or TIG has no slag, only gas shielding.

Heavy slag stick rods like E7018, or flux cored wire from a MIG unit, will almost always have slag inclusions trapped in the weld bead if run downhill. Not to say that it can't be done, but hard to do well. Not a beginner level skill.

Smart companies go to great lengths to allow the shop welders to perform as much work as possible in the flat and horizontal positions. Chain falls, slings, trolley cranes, turntables and positioners are staples in any production shop. More and better work completed quickly, with less stress on the worker.

You can't lay a bridge or a skyscraper on it's side, or put it on a rotisserie, so structural welds are vertical up and overhead by necessity and code.

Use any means that works on your personal projects, but there are codes in place to promote public health and safety for valid reasons.

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bubba682   

I wasn't talkin about code work John if your referin to my post just general welding around the farm or backyard.

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Nope, nothing personal. Just referring to my posts further back in the thread. I am a CWI, so I tend to take things that are supposed to be code work and related standards kinda serious.

Welding done even halfway right is generally overkill for personal projects. Engineered structures are an entirely different matter.

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bubba682   

I got a ques for ya how much xray do you see on engineered structural work compared to high pressure pipe work down there .

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Very little X-ray or other RT on structural, usually PT, UT or MT. Paperwork is a pain in the patoot to bring out a gamma source in the field. Has to be high priority work.

Most pressure vessel shops around here now have in-house digital X-ray capability.

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bubba682   

The same as up here i just come off a new co gen powerplant job it was a 100% xray on most systems and they were usin the phaser ray gun i don't know if thats the right name but it showed the exact depth of the repair.

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Yup, phased array Ultrasonics are the new darling of field inspection. Despite a raft of data showing that UT is still not as high resolution as RT.

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Lou L   
On 7/31/2017 at 6:48 AM, bubba682 said:

Actually Lou vertically down is pretty easy its also called down handing alot of guys will fill large gaps with it then go up hand over that.Once you learn your heats and a few tricks most welding isn't that hard it just takes time to learn.

I think I would be a much better welder if I had a better welder.  Right now I'm using a cheap HF 90amp inverter until I get the chance to run 220 to my garage so I can use my old 200 amp tombstone.  I've tried vertical up welding a number of times and it's always a fail.  X rays of my welds would look like a Rorschach test.

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bubba682   

My advice once you get 220 find an old miller acdc thunderbolt or a lincon acdc 125/225 and some 3/32 7018 and have at er with some practice in the 4 positions and get some cheap pipe and practice socket welds in the 4 positions and  it'll come.Lol we all have problems some days with the xrays any welder ever tells ya he dont is full of it....OOPS just relized you said you got a tombstone must be lincoln use that for sure. I got a 220 mig ,a mobile miller and right now i do most of my tig and stick work with a 30 plus year old thunderbolt still tigs like its brand new lol.

Well John i dont  know how guys feel about the phased array down there but most of us pipe welders hate it here lol.That and young qc's who never welded before tellin us how to weld it and how it should look let alone cant read an xray somedays lol.

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On 7/30/2017 at 8:30 PM, bubba682 said:

f 18 are you walkin the cup or free handing the tig torch

Free hang.  if i leave marks on the metal from walking the cup, i fail that coupon.

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bubba682   

You mean free hand, and if you drag the cup on the cap and leave marks it can fail visual yes if there bad .You got to watch for undercut on the edges as well .When your walkin the cup you want it to look like fish scales with no undercut on the edges or or cup marks on the cap.I mostly freehand for positional welding in the feild especially in tight spots when there goin to xray it.Free hand caps arnt as pretty as cup walkin caps but pretty dont pay the bills or pass xrays catchin your edges on the root and stayin clean in the fill and havin a good cap ,pass visual and xrays.Plus theres alot of other tricks that help as well like noing your heat for burnin rod.

 

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BeaverNZ   

The main welding fault when it comes to verticle welding with the stick welder and most other possitions as well as the operator has the arc length too long which makes the arc voltage higher. This makes the surface of the weld pool more fluid and difficult to control this also reduces the amps, so the end of the rod should generally be almost touching the work and with 3.2mm E7018 or low hydrogen  rods about 110 amps with DC and about 115 with AC

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