brickman Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 So i tried searching about this topic but had no luck. It's somewhat specific and maybe i'm dumb for asking but i dont know enough about the difference in properties between natural gas and propane.. Anyways the question is if i have a propane burner forge, can i just get a drop for my natural gas line into my garage and simple plug and play the natural gas line into the propane forge and have it work? Are there other considerations when doing this? are there big downfalls of natural gas vs propane or vice versa? I've been toying with the idea of doing that since natural gas is very cheap and i wouldnt have to refill a tank ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 What happens if you use diesel in a gas engine (or vice versa)? You can switch out NG for Propane but you would have to redo the orifice to be much larger. Your burner would have to be built for it too as NG is typically delivered at quite low pressures here in the USA and so most NA burners won't work. (NG pressures are usually given in inches of water column, 7 inches or water column is a common delivery pressure where 15 psi would be around 34.5 FEET of water column.) Using a blown burner avoids the lower pressure issues. (and they are more simple to build as well) So if you have a blown burner with a larger orifice, go for it! I've had NG equipment converted to propane by silver soldering the orifice and redrilling to the correct size and many commercial furnaces are offered to be used with either gas---but you specify when ordering and they install the correct burner for that gas. (I live in an area with no NG and so we deal with such things---I have a propane kitchen range for instance.) My Johnson Gas Forge was from a school shop program and set up for NG and the conversion to propane was a SOP, (but I traded it for some Parks 50...it was a gas hog and a propane forge I built at a workshop worked much better for my needs.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 Short answer: No Long answer: Residential natural gas is typically at a MUCH lower pressure than what you use from your propane tank (1/4 psi verses up to 30 psi). If you have a Naturally aspirated (ventauri) burner the air is entrained by the gas escaping through an orifice at high velocity. That velocity is proportional to the upstream gas pressure. Lower pressure means lower amount of air entrained (not to mention less gas as well). This will lead to a malfunctioning burner. If you are using a forced air burner (with a blower) there is a chance that you can just replace your burner orifice with a larger one and get it to work. Orifice size is critical, and expect to need a much larger natural gas line than the propane line (for the reason listed above). See that Thomas has beaten me to the punch this time. As far as I can quickly read, his recommendations are correct, as usual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brickman Posted May 17, 2017 Author Share Posted May 17, 2017 This helps a lot. Naturally i didnt want to make any decisions on my own without some info on this since it's regarding gas and potentially explosive material.. I guess my short term plan will then be just to use the propane burner for the time being and my long term goal will be to start putting together a natural gas one with a blower.. Thanks a ton for the info. Also, how long will a "normal" size propane tank last for forging? There is actually a propane company right down the road from my house where i can get bigger propane tanks and i think big supplies for cheaper if wanted so i want to see what kind of forging time i can get with a standard tank so i know if i need to upsize or not... at first i believe i'll just be running a 1 burner forge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 20 minutes ago, brickman said: Also, how long will a "normal" size propane tank last for forging? There is no good answer to this question without a lot more info. Factors that come into play: size, shape, insulation, and openings of your forge in addition to what temperature you are trying to reach (are you forge welding or forging at orange heat for instance), and of course ambient temperature and a few other factors. My last forge was made from a disposable helium tank and used a 3/4" Frosty T burner. I never tried to forge weld in it and I'd typically get about 10 hours of forge time from a "normal" (BBQ size) propane tank. Your mileage may (and probably will) vary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 Yes this is basically "what kind of gas mileage will I get driving, I have a 4 cylinder car..." I generally budget 1 bbq sized tank for an eight hour day of classes and expect to have some left over for "personal use" running a two burner 10" diameter pipe 16 inches long propane forge, no forge welding in class! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brickman Posted May 18, 2017 Author Share Posted May 18, 2017 7 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: Yes this is basically "what kind of gas mileage will I get driving, I have a 4 cylinder car..." I generally budget 1 bbq sized tank for an eight hour day of classes and expect to have some left over for "personal use" running a two burner 10" diameter pipe 16 inches long propane forge, no forge welding in class! Nice, so i texted the guy also to ask who's building the forge and he basically told me this same. His 2 burner which he's making will do about 8-10 hours but his single burner is ~12 hours. I appreciate the feedback! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fat pete Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 i jave a 60# tank I have a 2 burner chili forge and I run 1 burner most of the time... 40 hrs I like the 60# because I can move it around ...and I am not picking up propane all the time/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 Propane also delivers more BTUs per gallon and is a LOT more portable. Imagine wanting to take your natural gas forge to a hammer end for a weekend. I run a 100lb. tank in the shop and use a 40lb. one for going portable. I've pretty much switched my forge over to multiple outlet (ribbon) burners and they get much better economy. However that is in MY forge with MY home made burners doing what I do so no telling how my setup would work for you. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brickman Posted May 18, 2017 Author Share Posted May 18, 2017 13 hours ago, Frosty said: Propane also delivers more BTUs per gallon and is a LOT more portable. Imagine wanting to take your natural gas forge to a hammer end for a weekend. I run a 100lb. tank in the shop and use a 40lb. one for going portable. I've pretty much switched my forge over to multiple outlet (ribbon) burners and they get much better economy. However that is in MY forge with MY home made burners doing what I do so no telling how my setup would work for you. Frosty The Lucky. Yeah i'm just trying to figure out what is most effecient for my purpose. I want to be able to go to the garage, flick it on and be hammering as fast as possible, hence the switch to gas. I think i will also run at least a 100lb tank since there is a propane company right down the road from me i might even look at getting a bigger one that i have them come and fill every x often, then just have a small 40lb or so tank that i keep filled for when i need to take it somewhere.. All just thoughts at this point but i'm working with the guy now on getting my new propane forge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 My wife has gotten tired of needing the 100 pound tank taken into town and refilled. (At 70 it's a bit much for her to handle especially when it's full). So last time she had it filled she was talking with the propane company and decided to get a larger tank that would be refilled in place by the propane company---now this only runs her kitchen stove so it's not going to see a lot of fills; but i was all for it. The almost unused 100# tank went out to my shop for my propane forge(s)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackdawg Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said: My wife has gotten tired of needing the 100 pound tank taken into town and refilled. (At 70 it's a bit much for her to handle especially when it's full). So last time she had it filled she was talking with the propane company and decided to get a larger tank that would be refilled in place by the propane company---now this only runs her kitchen stove so it's not going to see a lot of fills; but i was all for it. The almost unused 100# tank went out to my shop for my propane forge(s)! Can you get the shop tank topped up when they come and fill the wife's kitchen tank ? Or do they only refill the stationery tanks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 As I recall the fill is at a higher price when they bring it to you. It's easy to load and unload a tank at my shop. I probably will just fill it as needed when I go to town... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brickman Posted May 18, 2017 Author Share Posted May 18, 2017 2 hours ago, Jackdawg said: Can you get the shop tank topped up when they come and fill the wife's kitchen tank ? Or do they only refill the stationery tanks? we have a natural gas line into the house from the city so no tank. But i thought about putting in a stationary on the side of the house potentially. I would need to talk to them to see if its worth it. 2 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: As I recall the fill is at a higher price when they bring it to you. It's easy to load and unload a tank at my shop. I probably will just fill it as needed when I go to town... I was thinking of getting a big enough tank that you couldnt load / unload and then get a discount on the bulk purchase.. I need to go talk to them to see if it's even worht it but that's what we do at the farm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 A natural gas line into your garage will require a building permit, and a certified plumber doing the work. Problem is, this is likely to only be the beginning; if you are pounding steel enough to need a 100 lb. tank changed very often, you have already come to people's notice, so with the final inspection, don't be surprise from a visit by your Fire Marshal, and a whole lot more trouble... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brickman Posted May 19, 2017 Author Share Posted May 19, 2017 17 hours ago, Mikey98118 said: A natural gas line into your garage will require a building permit, and a certified plumber doing the work. Problem is, this is likely to only be the beginning; if you are pounding steel enough to need a 100 lb. tank changed very often, you have already come to people's notice, so with the final inspection, don't be surprise from a visit by your Fire Marshal, and a whole lot more trouble... Yeah i'm thinking that might not be worth the hassle.. When i build my shop i'll probably just do a big above ground propane tank or something and get it done by the propane company. No point in chasing natural gas if it's going to be too much of a hassle and then i move my forging away from my house anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 Running natural gas to a forge can look enticing, but the reality has so many problems as to cause propane all but bury it. Than there is propylene, which can reduce the amount of fuel you have to transport by a third. There are ultra efficient forges that can do the same thing, and more. Smaller propane cylinders can be ganged together. There are many ways to solve your problem. The quick answer is seldom the best one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Smith Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 If you own your house, you can service it and upgrade it yourself, in alaska. You don't need special anything but a gas tech needs to pressure test/stamp a new houses. I worked for the gas company and now own a bussiness building alternative fuel combustion systems and controllers. The gas specs vary from place to place but most cities do not supply enough flow, necessarily. If you keep your forge smaller than a fridge, you can always install additional burners. Black iron pipe isn't expensive and replumbing of your heat lines most likely isn't required. If you need additional pressure or a larger regulator, it's a simple call to the gas company but they may want to inspect this "firepit" before installing a larger regulator. I don't regret my ng forge. 1/2 psi and 6.8ish w/c ran off 1 1/4" BIP with a 250k btu valve controlled by a pressure combustion fan pressure switch (Old modine garage heater). I don't regret it one bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 Welcome aboard Bob, glad to have you! If you'll put your general location in the header we might live within visiting distance! I live a HAIR north of Wasilla, a couple miles off the Parks on Vine rd. Which gas company were you with? Our next meeting is next Saturday the 30th. in Anchorage at Jim Hutto's place. Unfortunately I may not be able to attend, life is raising it's head in spite of my plans! Oh well, life beats the alternative, that one was no fun. We LOVE pics, do you mind posting pics of your burner? Please. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tankyanker Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 On 5/17/2017 at 9:42 AM, brickman said: So i tried searching about this topic but had no luck. It's somewhat specific and maybe i'm dumb for asking but i dont know enough about the difference in properties between natural gas and propane.. Anyways the question is if i have a propane burner forge, can i just get a drop for my natural gas line into my garage and simple plug and play the natural gas line into the propane forge and have it work? Are there other considerations when doing this? are there big downfalls of natural gas vs propane or vice versa? I've been toying with the idea of doing that since natural gas is very cheap and i wouldnt have to refill a tank ever. Propane is 1/3 more powerful than natural gas with the same amount of volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 NG is usually delivered at much lower pressures than propane is: for example NG may be at 1" water column where propane at 7psi is 16 *feet* water column! It also has a lower energy density. This doesn't mean you can't use it; it just means that the burner will have to be engineered for it. We have a propane kitchen range and when we bought it I had to replace the orifices to use it for propane and adjust the air entrainment. We're rural so no NG! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tankyanker Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 Thank you for the advice. Going to use propane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 I forgot to mention that the regulator for the stove's propane is set to lower the pressure *way* *down* and is not adjustable. Not a problem; all the Johnson gas forges used at the schools when I was growing up were NG forges. They were just engineered for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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