Started some tongs

[Melw45]

I started working on some tongs. I am trying to fallow the Dempsey twist from the Anvilfire site.

Can you tell which one was the second one?

I learned some things today.

Hot steel is easier to work,

I need a fuller! The edge of the anvil worked but a fuller would be better.

I am out of shape and got tired swinging the hammer. Glad I bought the 2 LB to start.

My vise was indespansable in doing the twists.

Any advise on drawing out the reins?

Thanks for looking!

Mel

 

 

 

[Ranchmanben]

That's a decent start. I'm not really a fan of a twist tong myself, I think there's a weak spot between the jaw and the boss. Don't worry about not having a fuller, you'll figure that part out soon enough and every pair you make will get better. I use a 2lb hammer more than any other and as you use it more it will become second nature. Keep swinging. 

[Mark Ling]

3 minutes ago, Ranchmanben said:

That's a decent start. I'm not really a fan of a twist tong myself, I think there's a weak spot between the jaw and the boss. Don't worry about not having a fuller, you'll figure that part out soon enough and every pair you make will get better. I use a 2lb hammer more than any other and as you use it more it will become second nature. Keep swinging. 

agreed, the twist tongs in my opinion have a week spot in one of the spots you really don't want one. But this is good practice and they so far look good. Use the edge of the anvil to draw out the reins, it speeds it up a lot!!

                                                                                                                      Littleblacksmith

[arkie]

Mel, two hints on the Dempsey twist tongs:  First, make the twist at yellow heat and slowly on mild steel.  Twisting too cold and/or fast will lead to cracks.  Second, whether you use the anvil edge, a bottom fuller or the horn when drawing out the reins, also do that at yellow to orange on mild steel or you will likewise form cracks....it's OK to planish or smooth your reins at lower heat.  Higher carbon steel like sucker rods, coil spring, etc. should be worked hot.

[Melw45]

Thanks for the feedback.

My yard was in full sun so kind of hard for my untrained eye to judge temp color.

I will keep a eye on it.

Has any one seen a good tutorial video on non twist tongs?

Thanks

Mel

[Mark Ling]

Joey Van Der Steeg has quite a few videos on making non twist tongs out of RR spikes along wit Alec steel and Brian Brazeal. A general rule is that when you see a smith making a pair of tongs out of rebar that the video isn't worth watching. Some one who thinks rebar is good enough to make tongs out of lots of times don't understand blacksmithing and more specifically tong making very well.

                                                                                                                     Littleblacksmith

[Ranchmanben]

22 minutes ago, Melw45 said:

Has any one seen a good tutorial video on non twist tongs?

Thanks

Mel

I'm assuming you are wanting to stick with the flat jaw tong style, there are many great tutorial videos on YouTube. Brian Brazeal has a pretty good video. You should go ahead and finish the set you started. When I started making tongs I would get really frustrated that mine didn't look exactly like the ones in books or in the video and I'd quit on them. Don't do this.  Because of this absurd overexpectation of myself I didn't often practice punching holes or work on the fitting the tongs to the size material I wanted them for. Your tongs don't have to be perfect, nice or even useable to practice these thing on but they are all critical to a good pair of tongs. Even if the beginning steps don't work out just right you can still get good practice in and most all of these steps cross over to smithing other things. As I said earlier, every pair will get better any you'll learn something from each pair. 

[Melw45]

I started to draw out the tongs today. Hammered until my arm was shaking.

I had made some ajustments to my forge. It seems to be getting hotter the steel looked almost wet coming out of the heat.

Thanks for looking.

Mel

 

[Ranchmanben]

Are you using the face of your anvil to draw them out?

[Melw45]

2 hours ago, Ranchmanben said:

Are you using the face of your anvil to draw them out?

Over the edge. Half on half off.

Looks ugly now. 

Mel

[Ranchmanben]

Sometimes you gotta mess them up pretty good before you fix them. It looks like you might have 3/8"X1" there? The are a couple of ways to draw that out to help you speed up the process and not wear yourself out. The first is to make the bar square then start using half on blows while rotating the stock. Again Brian Brazeal has a good video of this method on you tube. Another method is to create a series of notches on both sides using the edge of your anvil holding the stock at 30 degrees or so then flatening it out. Your material ends up with a zig zag pattern before you flatten it out. I don't know of a video of this and I'm not very good at describing things so I sketched this out. Not the best but you should get the idea. 

[Melw45]

Ranchmanben

Thanks for taking time to draw that. It helps a lot.

I think that may be within my skill set.

I will give it a try when I can get back to the anvil.

I have to do some honeydos.

Thanks again!

Mel

[rockstar.esq]

Melw45,  One thing that helps reduce the work of drawing out is to avoid  putting sharp dings in the stock.  The half-on, half-off striking that was mentioned above is a good example of how to make the metal move without creating more work in cleanup.

There are a lot of videos on youtube about drawing out a taper using a similar technique with the hot end kept intentionally off the anvil face for as long as possible.  The little "blob" of hot metal is basically pinched every 90 degrees in a half-on, half-off blow. 

I've also found that there's a balancing point between stock that's big enough to hold heat for forging while, yet small enough to move quickly under the hammer.  For me, starting with something up around 1" it looks like nothing's happening in each heat.  Once the stock's around 3/4" - 5/8" in cross section, it's completely different.  It took me a while to figure out that I had tired myself out so much drawing down from 1" to 3/4" that I didn't realize how much more I'd have gotten done if I'd started with smaller stock.

Getting tired plays havoc with learning hammer control for me.  It's worth mentioning that a whole lot of youtube video's are edited for time. One that really stuck in my head was a video on forging hammer head making tongs out of automotive coil spring.  The total video was maybe 45 minutes.  Watching it, you can tell they edited out the time waiting for the stock to heat up.  There's nothing wrong with that since it compresses the "action" of what's being demonstrated.  Anyhow, I watched the whole video and noticed there were several comments where people were asking questions and the video maker was answering them.  As I read along, I was surprised to see the video maker admitting that the entire tong making process was 9 hours!  They'd done such a good job of splicing the edits that I honestly thought the whole forging process was shown.

I went from feeling like a weakling who couldn't get anything done in a reasonable amount of time to realizing that I was pretty much on par with the person who made the video.  Since then, I pay better attention to any video depicting drawing out because an awful lot of them are edited to make it look like the smith is faster than they really are.

 

 

[Melw45]

Ranchmanben

I got some more forge time today. Used your method and it worked better.

I am still making some ugly tongs.

I also changed the way I am holding the hammer and the close in grip seems to work better.

Knocked off when my mostly empty BBQ tank of propane got cold. The other problem is the tank is out of date.

I cant get it filled have to look in to getting a new tank.

 

rockstar

Thanks for the advice. I have long suspected that many of the blacksmith videos are edited for time.

Thanks for looking

Mel

 

 

Edited May 11, 2017 by Melw45
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[Ranchmanben]

Glad to hear it. There's no way around it, drawing out reins is time consuming and not much fun without a power hammer. The more you do it, the more comfortable you'll be with it, you'll find out what works for you and you'll get quicker. Also you'll build up stamina. One think I didn't point out above it that I only use that zig zag method with the tall side standing vertically. It's good for getting you down to square material to work. 

[beammeupscotty]

Tongs can be a pain to make, no doubt about it.  There are however, easier ways and more difficult ways to make them.  As has already been mentioned, twist tongs have an inherent weakness and I don't make them any more.  The ones I do still have are rarely used and I built up that weak area with weld using a MIG so they are at least partially useful.  The method I currently use  I got from a youtube video by Rowan Taylor.  Forge welding the reins on limits the amount of drawing out you have to do.  This method yields very strong tongs with none of the weakness that twist tongs exhibit.

 

I would also recommend that you take a flap wheel to your off side edge, assuming that is where you draw out. You should polish up the bick as well.  My experience has been that with any fuller, whether one that fits in the hardy hole, or your anvil edge or the bick or a top fuller, the smoother the surface is, the easier it moves metal.  

 

[Melw45]

Beammeupscotty

I have watched that video.  He forge welds the raines on.  I dont know how to do that. My forge is not hot enough to weld yet as well.

Thanks

Mel

 

 

[ThomasPowers]

Around these parts you just take them to a big box store and swap them out---if they have the triangular valve handle on them.

If they don't, build a forge from it and buy a newer used one at the fleamarket.

[Melw45]

41 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

Around these parts you just take them to a big box store and swap them out---if they have the triangular valve handle on them.

If they don't, build a forge from it and buy a newer used one at the fleamarket.

I could do that as well. It has some left in it I am loathe to give it away. I am not cheap I am frugal.

That is my story  and I am sticking to it.

Time to hit Craigslist and see what I can find.

My dad has one of the larger ones found on RVs that is expired that would make a larger forge or small BBQ.

I told him to keep it for me.

Thanks

Mel

 

[Mark Ling]

18 hours ago, Ranchmanben said:

There's no way around it, drawing out reins is time consuming and not much fun without a power hammer.

That's my favorite part of making the tongs! get you a rhythm going and get at it, makes it fun!!

                                                                                                                   Littleblacksmith

[Ranchmanben]

2 hours ago, littleblacksmith said:

That's my favorite part of making the tongs! get you a rhythm going and get at it, makes it fun!!

                                                                                                                   Littleblacksmith

To quote my 8th grade history teacher, "Simple minds, simple pleasures."  Just kidding. I could see how someone would like it but I like doing the working end much more than the reins. If I had to pick a part I like the most it would be punching the hole. No idea why, I just like it. 

[Mark Ling]

3 minutes ago, Ranchmanben said:

To quote my 8th grade history teacher, "Simple minds, simple pleasures."  

I like that one!

I just really enjoy the heavier forging, though I see how you can like the jaw/boss area, as it makes you have to think a little more, and I enjoy it, it just isn't my favorite part. I also enjoy riveting them, and typically enjoy punching, but not so much on tongs unless they're bolt jaw tongs.

I'm just weird like that...

                                                                                                                                   Littleblacksmith

[Melw45]

Well had some fun this afternoon. Started on the second side put the notches in the top and bottom.

Got it back in the fire to start drawing it out and it got to hot.

Hit it and it fell in half.

Looked like it was melting. I thought well why not try to weld it.

I put the flattened pieces on top of each other and got them hot.  Pulled the out and gave the some light taps and they stuck!

Got it hot once more and gave it some good whacks. I then pulled the two parts in to a V shape and opened it up and tried to flatten it out.

Started to tear at a new spot well darn. Cleaned it with my wire brush and welded again. Only straight Seemed to work. May have some inclusions but i feel like 

I did some thing. Got hot and tired so shut it down and am getting some water and cooling off. Will post photos when the metal is cool.

Mel W. 

[Melw45]

Photos as promised. Both sides.

Thanks for looking.

Mel

[Latticino]

Looks like you got a forge weld, but would have to grind or do a peel test to be sure.  Cold shunts at the tips of each bar most likely due to lack of scarf before assembly.  "Tear" at location of weld can be due to forging the welded area at too low a temperature.  If your hammering will put a stress on the welded joint (i.e. forging in the orientation that is 90 degrees rotated from the forging you did to initially bond the surfaces) it is recommended that you keep the stock at close to welding temperatures until the weld is completely set (and probably thereafter for that matter...).