Punch for tongs

[Hawgdirt]

I just started smithing and for my first real project I'm make a pair of Brian brazeal hammer tongs in preparation for making a hammer. Too my surprise they turned out decent up until the punching of the hole for the rivet. Number one I used 3/8 smooth stock from tractor supply, spice l should've used 1/4.  I made a punch from that 3/8 smooth round from tractor supply with a long taper. Problem is it keeps folding over everytime I use it.  I did manage to punch a hole on one but it has very little meat keeping the hole in tact on one side. I guess it will work.  Do I need a different metal so it won't fold over or do I just need a short fat taper? 

[John McPherson]

If you are going to the trouble to make Brazeal/Habermann style hammer tongs, why don't you try the appropriate punches?

[Mark Ling]

A punch that is that small needs to be made from something other than mild steel. Something like 5160, or even better 4140. A peice of coil spring straightened out, or a piece of sucker rod works great. You punch a hole smaller than the diameter of the steel the river is made of. Then you make a drift. A drift is not a punch, but what you drive through the hole you just punched. Take a bit of the 3/8" round, forge a taper on one end. This taper does not need to come to a point, but just small enough to fit into the hole. Then, from where the taper starts, about 3/4" start a short taper. This drift is meant to be driven through the hole. The small taper on the striking end is so that it will fall out after you have driven it past the bar section.

The rivet should be 3/8", on a pair of tongs like them, they need to be pretty beefy to hold up to all the sledge work. If it seemed too big, and there wasn't enough steel to support the hole, than that means the tongs aren't built thick enough. Also, these tongs should be made from coil spring, or some medium carbon steel, again, to hold up to all the force and work that these tongs need to hold up to. The tongs need to be small enough so they are light, you will already have a 1-5lb hammer billet, and you won't want any more weight than what you will have. With coilspring, you can make them thin and light, but still sturdy. The boss (where the rivet is) should be the thickest part on ant tong, and that still applies to this pair. On either side of the bos should be a long taper. They should be made from 5/8" or larger stock to have enough meat to forge them to were they will last more than one hammer making session.

Regular flat jaw tongs are already way above first time lighting the forge projects, and hammer making tongs are even higher.

                                                                            Littleblacksmith 

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning, Hawg

You need to use a better grade of Steel to make punches and chisels, not Mild Steel.

A piece of Coil Spring, a piece of Leaf Spring U-Bolt (that holds the rear axle to the leaf spring), a piece of ?????. You don't have to purchase a new piece of Steel, but that is the only way of knowing what you really have. Think simple, What is available that you are able to scrounge.

just my $0.02

Neil

[Mark Ling]

Drift-

drift.docx

[Hawgdirt]

I forged the tongs out of 1/2 rebar. Figured that'd be thick enough. I do have a 1" axle I could try and use but I think that might be a little much to try and draw out.  I could forge a punch from the axle. Guess I better start with a less complicated set of tongs. I just needed something that would hold 2" axle to make a simple cross peen hammer. 

[Frosty]

Don't get carried away, use the axle for hammers, hardies, set cuts and the like. Keep your eyes open, broken and old coil springs are all over the landscape or you could ask at a auto/truck shop. A box of donuts when you ask goes a long ways to good PR. Another excellent source of punch, drift, etc. stock are yard, garage etc. sales, keep your eyes open for old chisels, punches, etc while you're looking for smooth faced hammers, ball peins, sledges, single and double jack, etc.

I discourage new folks from using rebar, not that it isn't usable steel it's just too inconsistent. A newcomer has enough on his/er plate learning hammer control. However, using stock that reacts differently, sometimes within inches on the same bar, than expected is just another PITA a newbie doesn't need to deal with.

Later after you've developed skills at the anvil you will need to learn how to evaluate found steels and be able to adjust your working techniques to use it successfully. Make practice projects from store bought mild steel and your tools from coil spring, leaf for some things. The two steels feel and work differently on the anvil but they are consistent so you only have a relatively small adjustment to make.

All that is to say. Set yourself up for success, you'll learn faster and suffer less frustration if you don't have too many problems to deal with at once.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Hawgdirt]

Thanks for the info. trying not to complicate this but the only difference between a punch and a drift is that a punch has a point end correct?

[Frosty]

NO. Bryan Brazeal type punches have a gentle point IIRC 30*. This is to cause the punch to go straight, not force material out of the way. His punches are especially useful punching thick stock.

The difference between a punch and a drift goes like this. A punch is for MAKING a hole of whatever shape. A drift is for precision shaping and sizing holes. 

What we've come to think of as a "punch" as pointed is a "Center Punch" which are used to mark specific locations and prevent later tools from drifting off the site. A drill bit wants to wander if you don't use a center punch first.

Center Punches are lousy for punching holes as they have to displace all the material in the hole. The displaced material has to go somewhere so it thickens around the hole and usually warps the project. Makes a lousy rivet hole for hinges like tongs.

A proper hole punch literally punches a slug out by shearing around the circumference. It removes the material in the hole and does minimum distortion to the surrounding material. Makes nice clean flat hinges.

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

The problem with rebar was not the thickness but the alloy.  Get an automotive coil spring for making punches and drifts and note that tong and hammer making are only beginner projects if you have an expert looking over your shoulder and coaching you---or you have a high tolerance for spending time, fuel and stock (all==MONEY), and then throwing away your mistakes

[Hawgdirt]

Ok well ill head to the scrap yard in the morning and get some coil spring. I was planning on making my own tools but if tongs and hammers aren't good for beginners, what are some good beginner projects. 

[ThomasPowers]

Well pretty much any of the beginner projects listed in books and websites including this one...

I general beginner projects work on increasing your basic skills and are very hard to mess up and leave you with an item that you can use or sell.

[Mark Ling]

well, the hammer eye tongs is a lot of tapering and drawing out. To practice this, start on small stock. If you can do it on small stock, you can use the same techniques on large steel. take that 3/8, forge a square taper. now forge that round. cut that taper off. make another taper, square, octagon, round (SOR). do that until you can forge clean tapers in one heat. Practice punching. if you are feeling bold, make your own punch. it is pretty much just a taper. With the stock size that you will be using to make the tongs, it is important to learn techniques that move metal very quickly, like using a hammer with a round face and using the edge as a fuller. The less contact with the face of the hammer and the anvil=more metal moved, and the steel will stay hot longer, because the face of the anvil isn't sucking away as much heat.

                                                                                                                                  Littleblacksmith

[Hawgdirt]

Awesome information.  Yea a decent hammor is what I need.  I'm going to home Depot to get me a 2lb cross peen, one I got is real old and the handle is like 6inches long. I had plans of making all my tools but I need a hammer. I'll post a picture of my half finished tongs tomorrow. And I made a punch today, it did punch a hole but kept folding over and I made the taper too long and used soft metal. Going to scrap yard tomorrow to get some bethere metal.

 

This is way off topic but my goal is to make those real nice looking brazeal hammer but all the videos show 2 people working together.  I can do all of it by my self except the fuller part. Can you use a fuller without a striker?

[Frosty]

Might I suggest you buy a 2lb. Drill Hammer instead of a cross pein. It'll be a little while before you can make efficient use of the cross pein's . . .pein. A Drill hammer is plenty heavy enough to do serious work without being so heavy it'll tire you quickly or injure you easily. Better still it isn't so heavy it makes mistakes permanent right away. Drill hammers also have shorter handles so you have better control and you'll keep it at the anvil till you quit blacksmithing for good.

Make or buy a new handle for the cross pein you have. Salvaging an old tool is almost as good as making one. 

If I'm sort of spring steel I go to spring shops. Tell them what you do and chances are they'll let you dumpster dive or maybe charge you scrap for it. A box of donuts is excellent PR and making something nice for the secretary is always good tactics.

Wrecking yards, even the one up the road from me charge used parts prices even for broken springs and I know the owner. They can't let the public pull parts and have to pay their guys so even broken junk springs tend to cost more than at a spring shop.

Frosty The Lucky.

[JHCC]

Frosty's advice is excellent. I would just add: Make friends with your mechanic. My guy has provided me with springs, torsion bars, axles, U-bolts, and all manner of other interesting stuff, and I keep bringing both cars to him and recommending him to everyone local who needs a mechanic. 

[Frosty]

And that's good PR in another form. I try to make friends with everybody.

Heck, for a fast punch if you don't have time to make one. Cut the threads off a lag bolt the right size. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

I used to live where there was a small local spring shop that would *make* springs to order.  They were happy to sell me their drops for US$1 a pound which I felt was a GREAT price for NEW, UNUSED, DOCUMENTED ALLOY, STEEL in convenient sizes for bladesmithing.

[Frosty]

Did they make coil springs? We have a number of spring shops but the only stock they have is leaf, nobody locally coils springs. That'd be SWEET, I'd stop watching ditches for broken coils. 

Another good tool steel resource that opened up in our area recently is the Home Depot rental counter. The old manager guy thought worn and broken jack hammer bits should be worth about 50% of new. Someone either changed his mind or they changed managers and you can pick up a worn or broken hack hammer bit for $5.00. Just a bit over scrap prices.

It's well worth asking about worn and broken jack and hammer drill bits at rental outfits. They're high quality medium carbon steel expect around 1045. More exotic alloys aren't used in common jack hammer bits unless it's for a special use, the "S" alloys are just too expensive for common uses like breaking concrete. I don't even think they use chrome moly alloys like 4140. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

Nope they were leaf springs only; but I was happy anyway.  Place had been in the same spot since the 20's and had a "patina" to say the least.

[Mark Ling]

8 hours ago, Frosty said:

Might I suggest you buy a 2lb. Drill Hammer instead of a cross pein. It'll be a little while before you can make efficient use of the cross pein's . . .pein. A Drill hammer is plenty heavy enough to do serious work without being so heavy it'll tire you quickly or injure you easily. Better still it isn't so heavy it makes mistakes permanent right away. Drill hammers also have shorter handles so you have better control and you'll keep it at the anvil till you quit blacksmithing for good

shame on me for asking, but why? a 2lb cross pein seems more useful. The cross pein offers everything that the drilling hammer offers, but more. The drilling hammer has 2 flat faces (yes they can be modified), while a cross pein has a flat face AND a pein. Sure the drilling hammers have shorter handles, but you can also cut down the handle on a cross pein and achieve the same results. Sure, like you said, he may not be able to use the pein yet, but when the time comes it will still be there.

                                                                                                                     Littleblacksmith

[JHCC]

You can grind a squashed-ball shape on one face to turn it into a rounding hammer.

[Mark Ling]

Correct, that was the only thing I could think of that is better than the cross pain. Though, you could grind a round die on the cross pain, you would just hopefully have another hammer that has a flat face.

                                                                               Littleblacksmith 

[Hawgdirt]

Didn't get much forging done.  Tried out anthracite coal, didn't work too well for me by itself, worked great mixed with bituminous.  Blacksmith supply in my area sells bituminous for a whooping $35 for 50lbs. Took my hand crank blower off and put on a bathroom fan from home Depot. Was a little concerned about air flow but it got 1" pto shaft white hot fairly quickly.  Guess coal doesn't need massive airflow.  Did practice making a punch but mostly just updated my forge. I Also put a picture of those tongs I tried to make and a half done hammer punch. 

[Mark Ling]

tongs overall don't look to bad. the reason the hole didn't have enough material, is cause you punched it in the wrong spot! don't punch it on the bend, but about an inch back.

                                                                                                                                    Littleblacksmith