jlpservicesinc Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Iron Poet said: Which is weird since it's really not that hard. Accuracy on par with what was being done daily 100 years ago might be.. The wagon seat back is a prime example.. Corners 90°, bar straight.. Yet each part was welded on.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Poet Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 7 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said: Accuracy on par with what was being done daily 100 years ago might be.. The wagon seat back is a prime example.. Corners 90°, bar straight.. Yet each part was welded on.. If I had assistants I could do those welds. A bit hard to do with a single pair of hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 4 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: Some methods in PB were based on the use of real wrought iron---they had things they avoided too, like punching and drifting eyes where a bent around and forge welded made a stronger one in wrought iron then a punch and drift. It's interesting to follow how things change over time and try to figure out why. It's sad to talk with people who don't realize that things have changed from use of bloomery made wrought iron to the indirect method to cast steel and Bessemer/open hearth process steel to BOF, etc. and they are still trying to apply methods that were associated with the properties of a specific material. As for working wrought iron and Practical Blacksmithing. Most the information in the book was taken from a periodical "Blacksmith and Wheelwright" Most of the methods were shared by people who wrote in as a suggestion on how a subject could be handled.. I used to study the book and then go and practice at what they shown and explained.. Some of the ideas presented worked very well and some not so well.. I have come to the conclusion when it comes to doing anything by hand, the person has a lot to do with the finished results. Wrought iron offer's so many advantages for a blacksmith, I mean lets face it the material was designed around the processes of the time which turned out the exact material to offer ease of work, welding was easy and it lasted pretty much forever.. Blister steel welds almost as easily at wrought iron as long as you account for the added carbon.. Modern steels for the most part can be forged all wonky and the results still turn out ok.. Wrought iron will have none of it.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoot Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Looks like you were scrounging around the old "Prison Camps" in that neck of the woods. Scoot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Yes the Journals were the internet forums of the day! Of course turn around time could be several months... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 28 minutes ago, Iron Poet said: If I had assistants I could do those welds. A bit hard to do with a single pair of hands. Thats pretty awesome.. I used to get asked all the time what was the hardest thing to make.. My very serious answer was/is.. It's not that one thing is harder to make than another.. It only takes longer to make.. I find all things take the same level of skill.. It may take 12 hrs instead of 2.. While it is possible to make things today with great skill.. Making 8, 15, 20, 200 and having them look the same takes great skill especially on custom orders vs stocking list items. It takes me about 1.5hrs to make a random thumblatch complete with back group and nails to make 1 latch.. it takes me about 2hrs-2.5hrs per latch when I have to make more than 5.. 9 minutes ago, Scoot said: Looks like you were scrounging around the old "Prison Camps" in that neck of the woods. Scoot Nope.. Off limits.. It gets very complicated in there since I'm a MTB'r.. Mind you if I see a rouge bar hanging around it's free game, but the most I have ever found there worth taking was a leaf spring broken off a truck on one of the roads.. Simply put it's not worth the trouble if you get caught.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoot Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Hopefully they loosen up and ease the bike use issue. A lot of great tracks in there. I am just on the other side of the Ware river. By the Coldbrook Campground. Scoot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 1 minute ago, Scoot said: Hopefully they loosen up and ease the bike use issue. A lot of great tracks in there. I am just on the other side of the Ware river. By the Coldbrook Campground. Scoot Nice area over there.. There used to be some good pickings for scrap at the old Steven's farm until they made it into and horse farm... never did find out where they buried all the scrap.. The goberment won't ever concede to the idiocy about biking in the watershed lands.. if you consider all the logging they do (heavy equipment) i have pictures showing the oil stains, how the main roads dump all the salt and road/car grime into the water from the highways, and with 2 dumps (one vintage) and one just getting ready to be capped right near the water intake that supplies Boston. It's mind boggling to think they are concerned with MTBing and oil contamination, as it has a smaller foot print per use vs a hiker/person walking.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gote Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 14 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: It's sad to talk with people who don't realize that things have changed from use of bloomery made wrought iron to the indirect method to cast steel and Bessemer/open hearth process steel to BOF, etc. and they are still trying to apply methods that were associated with the properties of a specific material. To apply old methods because one wants to try and learn or to reproduce a certain effect, I see as a good thing. Ardent believers that one MUST do things the way they did in 1867 exactly, (choose your year ) I see as weak needing a harness of kind to support themselves. 16 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said: I have to confess that sometimes when I read what I post I wanna punch myself in the face... Not in this thread I am sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 4 hours ago, gote said: To apply old methods because one wants to try and learn or to reproduce a certain effect, I see as a good thing. Ardent believers that one MUST do things the way they did in 1867 exactly, (choose your year ) I see as weak needing a harness of kind to support themselves. Not in this thread I am sure. I can see what you are saying and agree.. There is an expression: " Change with the times or die" Meaning there is a constant evolution going on around us, adapt to it.. As gas welding and then Electric welding became available most smiths couldn't wait to get one of these contraptions into the shop.. Talk about a great labor and time saver.. swage blocks, tire shrinkers became door stops.. I've always gravitated towards old technologies.. Kniting, pottery, blacksmithing, horse shoeing,, LOL.. Steam engines.. Hand work vs electric. I'd rather use a hand tool vs electric anyday. Funny, HA, Ha.. I'm not exactly sure why Wrought iron keeps coming up as a subject.. I was grooving on the hammer work and weld joints... I actually thought people would be more interested in springs and axles in this thread as they are usually high carbon.. The Nitro Express gun makers H&H would covet buggy springs for there Damascus gun barrels because of how nicely they would weld, twist.. etc, etc.. Yes, even this thread.. I am not the best conversationalist and being dyslexic makes it even worse.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 The Manufacturing and sales systems had a large impact on changes when combined with advances in transportation. It became cheaper to buy and ship items than to have them locally made. (It's amazing all the stuff the 1897 Sears Roebuck Catalog could sell you and I used to wander around looking at the buggy factory buildings in Columbus OH, USA) Many "local" smiths subsisted on repairs and custom or local designs that a factory might not cover. They of course added in welding and later often auto repair. (And vice versa, one of my 6" vises came from an auto repair place whose going out of business auction advertised that they had been in the same building since 1918---when they had a complete smithy and woodworking shop to do car repairs...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 4 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: The Manufacturing and sales systems had a large impact on changes when combined with advances in transportation. It became cheaper to buy and ship items than to have them locally made. (It's amazing all the stuff the 1897 Sears Roebuck Catalog could sell you and I used to wander around looking at the buggy factory buildings in Columbus OH, USA) Many "local" smiths subsisted on repairs and custom or local designs that a factory might not cover. They of course added in welding and later often auto repair. (And vice versa, one of my 6" vises came from an auto repair place whose going out of business auction advertised that they had been in the same building since 1918---when they had a complete smithy and woodworking shop to do car repairs...) funny how a good majority of blacksmiths turned to Auto repair.. Even back before major manufacturing took off in the USA, England is the one I know about mostly. They were shipping hardware to the Colonies that was being mass produced by hand in large blacksmithing shops.. The Norfolk latch is one such export.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 My Grandfather was a blacksmith in the U.S. Army. He served with Black Jack Pershing during the Mexican expedition chasing Poncho Villa all over the SW. When the Army started moving from horses to mechanized they made him a mechanic. How I miss his stories of adventure and blacksmiths advice. Speaking of buggy springs a friend of mine was tilling a space for his garden and ran into a treasure trove of buried buggy springs which he gave to me that I covet because they forge so well and make good knives and tools when tempered properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Wow I was just in Columbus NM last Saturday on my way to the dentist in Palomas, Mexico. We passed the ruins of the army base in the US and the Pancho Villa statue in Mexico. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gote Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 9 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said: funny how a good majority of blacksmiths turned to Auto repair.. They used to repair horse drawn buggies and then they repaired horeseless buggies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abby Babby Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 These parts could have come from and early automobile or something like a Brougham. Cargo, Farm Wagons and the lot do not normally have axle springs. Do you have any pictures of the Wheels? I can tell a lot more with the wheels. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted April 14, 2017 Author Share Posted April 14, 2017 4 hours ago, Abby Babby said: These parts could have come from and early automobile or something like a Brougham. Cargo, Farm Wagons and the lot do not normally have axle springs. Do you have any pictures of the Wheels? I can tell a lot more with the wheels. Regards No, the tires were just small hoops from a carriage vs heavy wagon or hauler... It looks like they were light enough that it may have even been a sulky.. I was hoping to find some tires from a heavy wagon or hauler.. It wasn't a motorized coach.. The mounts for the hames (spelling) tongue were there.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wroughton Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 On 3/4/2017 at 2:13 PM, jlpservicesinc said: Was a good day.. Funny thing was just about all of it was buried.. a few hoops were sticking up as was one of the axles.. I'm Jelly, when do we go next? On 3/5/2017 at 2:52 PM, ThomasPowers said: When the Mother Ship swings by I'll drop you a line! I'm Jelly, I have my fare ready. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abby Babby Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 Intresting, are you looking for something in particular? I'll ask around if anyone needs some old equipment picked up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted April 15, 2017 Author Share Posted April 15, 2017 8 hours ago, Abby Babby said: Intresting, are you looking for something in particular? I'll ask around if anyone needs some old equipment picked up. Not really.. I mean it's always nice to stumble into a wrought iron wagon wheel hoop sitting the middle of the woods somewhere.. But its more the treasure hunt than anything else.. I used to have literally a ton of the stuff but gave it away when I moved out of the old shop.. Now it's more a collection process to rebuild the stash some.. The wagon parts are tough because I won't repurpose any of the seat backs or irons for the buggy proper.. So I will basically clean them up and hang them from the wall.. The axles were made from medium or high carbon and are excellent for tools.. the springs same deal., but hate to really do anything with the old pieces.. I certainly wouldn't refuse a few heavy wrought iron axles or heavy hauler tire hoops.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 I like to use buggy springs for knives appropriate to the 19th century. Got one in the queue right now for my SiL who's into single action shooting. People won't wonder if it's original though cause I'm making it look like it would AT THAT TIME and not with a century plus of aging.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wroughton Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 4 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said: The axles were made from medium or high carbon and are excellent for tools.. the springs same deal., but hate to really do anything with the old pieces.. Have you verified that the axles are steel? I have several axles that are WI. One Studebaker wagon axle is particular is very coarse WI. I'll locate the axle at the shop today and get a picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted April 15, 2017 Author Share Posted April 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Wroughton said: Have you verified that the axles are steel? I have several axles that are WI. One Studebaker wagon axle is particular is very coarse WI. I'll locate the axle at the shop today and get a picture. now that was a great find..How neat is that.. Pretty amazing to think they saw the change coming and instead of fighting it they made coach bodies for cars.. My grand parents had a Studebaker when I was young.. What a tank.. I remember going out in a snow storm with it.. No I have not verified they are steel.. Just going from previous experience with this size axle.. If at some point I decide to use them for tools I will go through the process of determining material.. From the rust pattern it shows it to be carbon steels but then again I did not verify.. that really is one very awesome axle to find.. .. did /was this carriage in a fire? Looks like charcoal wood behind it.. Or the Japanese black finally let go.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 I haven't seen a studebaker tank; but I have seen a studebaker weasel---a small tracked vehicle from around WWII IIRC; SOFA meetings used to be held in the Studebaker Blacksmith shop when Emmert Studebaker was still alive. Wikipedia: The M29 Weasel was a World War II tracked vehicle, built by Studebaker, designed for operation in snow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wroughton Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 It came out of the river with the other stuff. Out of sight, out of mind. It was bulldozed, pushed into the log pond behind the dam. For this stuff my shop helped the county clean up all kinds of trash from the river and they rewarded us with the iron pile while they took care of the concrete and asphalt chunks. The county had a tilt bed truck used for removing abandoned vehicles to winch garbage. I spun the hub off and the spindle was still shiny with grease intact. I think we used the springs for bench hardware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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