Gergely Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 (edited) Dear All, I have the chance to buy a Beche 50kg air hammer (or its remains). It is said to be in working condition when it was dumped from its original workplace. Although that was not in the recent times. It has been in the open air for at least a decade. I know this is silly to ask but what do you think about the possible damage weather could cause in it? Also if you can provide any technical info on this hammer it would be very much apprieciated. (I.e. weight, motor speed/power) Best wishes and thank you for your kind help! Gergely Here are some pictures about her. Edited October 13, 2016 by Gergely spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gergely Posted October 13, 2016 Author Share Posted October 13, 2016 It misses the motor, so any kind of info on the motor would be really helpful. But anything that could get me learn more about this kind of machines would help a lot. I've found some readings about bigger Beches, and also about typeB Nazels - which I think are a bit similar contructions. (At the end of this: http://www.newenglandblacksmiths.org/power_hammer_info.htm) Or anything... really... Thank you all! Bests: Gergely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 First off contact Beche and ask them. second off lovely hammer, well worth anything you can do to get it installed. it is an air hammer so it will be air tight, which indicates that it will also be water tight. I have personal experience that both an Alldays and Onions 3cwt plus a Massey 2cwt survived similar periods outdoors with no problem. The only thing likely to get damaged would be the motor and as that is missing you don't have that problem! Obviously you scrape off any surface rust from the tup before you push it up...there is no point in ripping up the stuffing unecessarily. Make sure the crane man that lifts it for delivery does not do that in error...good idea to take a scraper and a pot of grease as soon as you pay the money and make sure it does not happen. there is a lot of info here regarding installing hammers with seperate anvils, check out the Massey and Allldays threads. The weight will be in the order of 1500kg for the hammer and 600 for the anvil....I am guessing based on the hammers I have without actually seeing it in order to get a sense of its bulk but if you check the spec sheets I posted here for my hammers they will give you a clue. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Most but not all of the self-contained power hammer experts have migrated over to the Facebook power hammer page, might be worth asking over there. That being said, the photos show an open port in the side, and IIRC it's missing some parts above the tup/driven cylinder (muffler?) That probably means water is getting inside. Rust inside the works, especially if it's not run in 10 years, is a red flag. The ram hanging down and at a glance very rusted is another possible problem, might run ok with a little cleaning or might require machining and replacing rings and glands, hard to say from a photo. If I had the chance to buy it for scrap price or anything less than $1000 USD I'd probably do it expecting to spend another $3-$5k fixing it up, then use it making money for a few decades. Would come out ahead in the long run. As to the motor here in the US they were low rpm (1200 for the 2b and 3b Nazels) 3 phase 60 Hz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gergely Posted October 14, 2016 Author Share Posted October 14, 2016 Thank you Alan and Judson Y. for your input! I try and contact Beche, the company have changed although but was seeing the current one somewhere. I guess it's better check out if this had a muffler or not, a big hole over the cylinder could be pretty sad surprise. Bests to all! Gergely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matei campan Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 hello Gergely I have it's cousin, a romanian kind of copy of that, a 63kg powerhammer. still to be inspected, fixed and installed. it works with a 7,5kw motor, but I think I saw others like mine working with a 3,5kw motor. it's total weight is 2750kg, 900 the anvil, so yours might be lighter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matei campan Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 I just saw a hammer like mine in running condition not far from the HU-RO border, near Oradea/Nagyvarad for the equivalent of 1500euros (maybe negotiable) . If you are interested I'll send you a link tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gergely Posted October 18, 2016 Author Share Posted October 18, 2016 Hi Matei. Thank you for the info! You mean 2750kg + 900kg the anvil, or total weight is 2750kg and from that 900kg is the anvil (the main part then 1850kg)? I'm asking so because I will pay it by weight so trying to get a number to count on... Bests Gergely 2 minutes ago, matei campan said: I just saw a hammer like mine in running condition not far from the HU-RO border, near Oradea/Nagyvarad for the equivalent of 1500euros (maybe negotiable) . If you are interested I'll send you a link tomorrow. crossing words Wow, thanks. I have to pass, though - although I may regret it deeply - I already made commitment by the Beche. ...But anyways, if you can send me the link I'll be grateful. At least I'll see what it is, and who knows then... Thanks a lot Bests Gergely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matei campan Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 No, 2750 all inclusive, from which 900 being the anvil. They are good hammers. I'll send the link tommorow. The price is very good for a working condition hammer, usually for that price are advertised hammers like your one, rusted outdoors. Btw, I also bought mine by the weight, at a time when scrap prices were double than now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gergely Posted October 19, 2016 Author Share Posted October 19, 2016 All clear, thank you. I found out that the Beche has been in open air only from the spring. And before that it was in working condition. Well, we'll see... Bests: G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 As far as weather damage goes I would not worry too much. Even in the workshop mine can be dripping with condensation when the weather changes. The residual oil from when it was last in use will not have been degreased! They are fairly robust machines. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gergely Posted October 19, 2016 Author Share Posted October 19, 2016 4 hours ago, Alan Evans said: As far as weather damage goes I would not worry too much. Even in the workshop mine can be dripping with condensation when the weather changes. The residual oil from when it was last in use will not have been degreased! They are fairly robust machines. Alan Do you think, Alan, I should try to start it right after I put a motor on it and cleaned the rust from the ram? Can I damage the machine in any ways if I do that? Bests and thanks! Gergely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo7 Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Can you wind it over by hand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gergely Posted October 19, 2016 Author Share Posted October 19, 2016 10 minutes ago, turbo7 said: Can you wind it over by hand? Hmm, not sure I get what you mean... To turn the big wheel which seated on the back by hand or somehow move the ram by hand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo7 Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Turn the big wheel, where the belts run -pulley- by hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gergely Posted October 19, 2016 Author Share Posted October 19, 2016 Okay, thanks. I can't test it till Tuesday when I get my hands on it. Is the turnable pulley a good sign? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo7 Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Yep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gergely Posted October 19, 2016 Author Share Posted October 19, 2016 Thank you for the tip! I'll try that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Also a good way to distribute fresh oil that has been added! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wpearson Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 10 hours ago, Gergely said: Do you think, Alan, I should try to start it right after I put a motor on it and cleaned the rust from the ram? Can I damage the machine in any ways if I do that? Bests and thanks! Gergely Do not run without anvil in place at correct height Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 14 hours ago, Gergely said: Do you think, Alan, I should try to start it right after I put a motor on it and cleaned the rust from the ram? Can I damage the machine in any ways if I do that? Bests and thanks! Gergely All good points already mentioned by others above. As I said earlier I would clean the rust from the ram as soon as you own it and before you ship it, to ensure that no inadvertent damage is done should the yard or transport people push it up when handling it. At the same time I would drain the sump and any oil tank or bearing housing in case the oil was sitting on water. I would drop some penetrating oil...hydraulic ISO 32 or ATF onto every valve spindle joint and bearing you can see....wipe of any excess so it does not get on the lifting slings! The cost and time of the installation is relatively high on a two piece hammer. Once you are committed to it you may as well commit to checking and restoring/rebuilding the hammer as best you can. There is no point in rushing the process and doing any damage to the hammer. If nothing is seized they turn over quite easily at the flywheel, but I would try and resist the temptation. Lift off the cylinder heads and just check the bores are not dry or rusty...one pass of the Pistons in a rusty cylinder will grind a few years worth of wear off. Of the three old machines I have had, none were rusty...but I checked them all first. I would mark up the valve spindles and operating levers with alignment tell-tales (or look for to see if any are already there, they most likely are) and explore the possibility of removing the valve spindles for clean up and lubrication. As soon as you start looking at the hammer you should get some idea of the internal condition. The construction of these industrial hammers is fairly robust whatever the make. They depend on large plain bearings and lots of oil for longevity rather than trying to be examples of friction free engineering. I don't know this model Bêché hammer and can't be sure from the photos but it would appear to have an oil tank on the back like my 1cwt Alldays and Onions. That has a manual pump built into the tank to get oil into the airways, a couple of stokes before starting and every now then whilst in use. The crank main bearings are lubricated by individual oil sumps with loose dipper rings, the big end with a an oil cup, and the little end/gudgeon pin with a grease cup. If the hammer has an automatic lubrication system like my 3cwt Alldays and Onions which has a cam operated pump driven off the crankshaft and is piped to the airways and bearings, it will take a lot of turning over and some potential damage before the oil will get around...especially the first time. You might consider activating the cam follower with a suitable lever to get oil into the bearings and valve chest before rotating or starting up...you can crack a joint on the pipe furthest from the pump to see when the oil gets there...the one on the side of the front cylinder is a good candidate. So in summary, the minimum should be...contact Bêché for installation and maintenance information....soak everything in penetrating light oil before you spin it...move every thing like the flywheel or valve operating lever gingerly to start with to ensure it is free before heaving on it. Scrape off any rust from bearing surfaces and give them a wipe of oil before moving them.... Keep us posted as to progress! Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gergely Posted October 21, 2016 Author Share Posted October 21, 2016 Wow, Alan thank you so much! You even answered questions I was about to ask Also thanks to all of you for your contribution! I think this little thing in the pictures with the small pulley and pipes going to the different parts of the hammer qualifies as an automatic lubrication system. Tuesday we ship the Beche home. I try and get some penetrating oil until then. And maybe I should clear some space in the workshop now! That's toughy! Bests: Gergely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matei campan Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 I keep the fingers crossed for you! as I saw you committed with the Beche, I told another friend about the hammer I found for sale and I hope he will buy it. the advices you got will be useful for me too, as I'm in the same situation as you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gergely Posted October 21, 2016 Author Share Posted October 21, 2016 Thanks Matei! Yeah, I'm really going with this one... Do you have a picture of yours? - just wondering... Bests: Gergely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 That is great, you can spin the oil pump and make sure the oil is getting through before you start turning the main flywheel. The oil connection to the cylinders will probably incorporate needle valve restrictors...on my 150kg Alldays the main, big and little end bearings have a full oil flow through them and back to the sump but there is just a tiny amount on a total loss system that goes into the airway on a constant pulse. If you take the cylinder connections apart and they do contain an adjustable restrictor system...make sure you mark them with a tell tale or count the turns to undo them, so that you can put them back into the same setting....it will take an age of over-oiling drips onto the pallets whilst you try to get the flow correct unless you do! Your Bêché looks like it has a total loss system which feeds to the airways through the double acting cylinder walls, and also a dribble down to the crankshaft which is not then retained. Automatic in as much as the pump is driven but not a cycling system. It will be interesting to see more details when you trace the oil flow along the crankshaft. Alan p.s. My engineer brother-in-law always jokingly referred to it as a "dead loss" system rather than "total loss"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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