Donniev Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 Hey guys I want your opinion on these. I've made about 15 pairs now, and I am still having an issue with the tongs having a little wiggle- it's not a lot, but even this pair while I hold one rein I can move the other probably 1/8" one way or the other. When I rivet it I set the rivet, then open and close them until they are free moving, then put my material in the jaws and make it fit. I take another heat and go to the vise (while holding the 1/4" in the jaws) and adjust the reins, then I slightly tap the rivet 2-3 times to get it tightened back up, then free them up again with the open close motion. I also open and close quickly when they go in the quench bucket. I included the last picture to show where I fire welded the rein onto the jaw portion. I forge the jaw and boss out of 1/2" and weld 3/8" square on for the reins, I'm wondering if the pitting shown in the picture is normal or if it can be prevented. I use borax as flux for the first 2 weld heats, I usually do a 3rd (no flux) just to clean it up and make sure there's no cold shuts. 'Sparkling' of the steel is pretty minimal when I take it out of the fire, so it's not like I'm pulling it out and it looks like a grinder hitting all 4 sides. Any suggestions to help me get rid of the 'loose' feel (even tho it's not much) would be appreciated, as well as any other constructive criticism Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daswulf Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 Good looking Tongs. so the looseness is at the rivet? you can tap them cold on the anvil with a hammer on the rivet to tighten them usually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solomon Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 A few of my tongs are like that, i think i drifted the hole a little too big. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Stephens Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 Hi Donniev, Your last photo seems to show a "lump" on the matching surface of the pivot. I have always found that the flatter and smoother I can keep these surfaces, the tighter everything fits together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 Another question: Did you cut a notch in the side you peined the rivet? A couple little chisel cuts in the hole the rivet gets peined on locks the rivet in the hole so it can't turn. This makes the tongs pivot on ONE hide and makes for a tighter fit. There's less wobble because the rivet only has to size itself in ONE hole when you work it after peining. PVF's observation and tip are solid good ones. Where that little bump is is causing you to lever laterally against the rivet when you're freeing it up after peining, wallowing the holes out instead of just freeing and fitting them. Match the bolsters and try notching the rivet hole on the peined side. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donniev Posted October 7, 2016 Author Share Posted October 7, 2016 I have not tried to put those 4 cuts in the hole yet, I'll give that a try, thanks. I'll also make certain that the boss area is as flat as possible, I had not noticed that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 30 minutes ago, Donniev said: I have not tried to put those 4 cuts in the hole yet, I'll give that a try, thanks. I'll also make certain that the boss area is as flat as possible, I had not noticed that A boss that's not flat on the bearing surfaces probably is the problem, other than a hole that's too large. Usually when you hot set your rivet it will swell up enough to fill the gap in the holes if the holes aren't too large. I had a problem with a couple of tongs that were loose and wobbly like your's and I drilled out the rivet, flattened the inside of the bosses to a "perfect" fit and no 'mo wobble! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Getting nice clean flat bosses is a good use for a set hammer. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redeagle Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 A few minutes with a file on the inside case of each boss. It should only be cleanup to smooth the mating faces since you've forged them pretty nicely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 On 10/6/2016 at 4:39 AM, Donniev said: Hey guys I want your opinion on these. I forge the jaw and boss out of 1/2" and weld 3/8" square on for the reins. Any suggestions to help me get rid of the 'loose' feel (even tho it's not much) would be appreciated, as well as any other constructive criticism I don't think there is much wrong with your technique/method that you are using, and using a flatter/set hammer would be beneficial. My suggestion would be to use a different choice of material sizes, go to 5/8" square to form the jaw, and use 3/8" square or round for the reins. The 5/8" would better make 3/4" wide when you forge the first stepdown. Then as you forge the next stage, you can bring it down to allow for a scarf to blend to the 3/8" bar after welding, upset and scarf the 3/8" bar to suit for welding. The reason I advise this is that it is preferable to have the jaws at least as twice as wide as the reins, and the thickness of the boss to be 1/2 of the width of the jaw, (in this instance) this puts the edge of the rein onto the centreline, which then allows the reins to be in line with each other when in the working position, In the picture, as you look down the reins you can see the tapering gap, which also throws the tongs out of line when in use, and tends to prise the pivoting area apart if you use a bar rack to support them when not in use. Another minor coment, the boss does not need to be as long as it is in the pics, it would be advisable to put the rivet in the centre not to one end as shown, again this gives more equal bearing area around the rivet, and reduces 'slop'. As an aside, do you hammer with your left hand and use the tongs in your right hand? As the ones in the picture appear to be for use in the right hand. I hope these comments are useful, have fun and enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donniev Posted October 7, 2016 Author Share Posted October 7, 2016 12 hours ago, John B said: As an aside, do you hammer with your left hand and use the tongs in your right hand? As the ones in the picture appear to be for use in the right hand. I hope these comments are useful, have fun and enjoy. Yeah I am left handed, and this is the first time I've heard of tongs being either left or right handed, what's the difference though? I've been making them based off of technicusjoes technique he shows on YouTube, and he goes through how to set down the jaw while angling the piece at a 45, whether you are left or right handed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 The difference is how the reins lay in your hands. With the bottom rein on your palm side the tongs will open automatically when you open your hand and the top rein is held by your thumb. If you're using an off hand pair the bottom tong is on the outside and you have to use the other hand to open them. It's almost intuitively automatic to make the correct for your handedness. You're holding the stock in your holding hand and it's natural to turn it away from you after you set the jaws, it's just the way your wrist works, then when you set the reins against the bolster it just looks wrong to not turn it the other way. Still, folk make them backwards all the time. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donniev Posted October 7, 2016 Author Share Posted October 7, 2016 O, that makes perfect sense, thanks. I'm going to attempt to put all the suggestions here in action on my next pair, I'll post pics. Most of the tongs I've made thus far have either been turned into a hook (cuz wow, there's been some bad ones lol) or something else, I've kept some, but I'd like to start selling some tongs just so I can pay for the coal, instead of buying it with my "real job" money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Frosty nailed the explanation spot on. It is a natural movement as you forge them, Mark out, same on two bars, lengths of jaw part to suit application of use. The key steps for the right handed tongs are as in the pictures, (these were to have drawn down reins, but same proceedure applies, after forging jaw end, just cut off from parent stock at the point of scarf) Holding the stock in your left hand. At the Near side of anvil forge down the jaw section to approx half stock width and in line with outer edge of jaw. Go to the far side of the anvil and turn 1/4 to the left and push out away from the body at an angle of approx 45 degrees at your mark at the end of the jaw and forge down to just above half the width of the jaw. Still at the far side of the anvil, Take another quarter turn to the left and at 90 degrees (square) to the anvil and at your mark, forge down to just over half the size of stock to give you the portion to attach your reins to. Round up the corners to form the boss, and punch through centre for your rivet. Cut off at your required length , form scarf and weld on your reins Dress up and finish ready for rivetting, And from your pictures you will have no problems with the rest of the process. As you are left handed, the same proceedure applies except you turn the stock to the Right each time Sorry I do not have pictures for the Lefties, of a left handed corkscrew, but that's not really appropriate here, but it is part of the blacksmiths magic to solve the problems of others. You probably did not need this, but it may help others to understand the process, Have fun and enjoy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donniev Posted October 8, 2016 Author Share Posted October 8, 2016 John thanks for the feedback. I was just out forging and got about 80% done with my next pair, but I ran out of coal. I made the boss area a bit smaller, and tried to make certain I had it laying flat, but as you can see, it was far from perfect. I think part of it was that I was using 5/8" instead of 1/2" (what I'm used to working with) I've never had that much metal obviously sticking out. The length of the boss has varied so far, I'm not measuring when I do the set down from the boss to the reins because I'm sure that the more pairs I make, the more it will become muscle memory. I filed down the extra metal on the edge of the boss, so it should be flat now. Just for the heck of it I forged these just like a right handed person would, it really only changed how I was standing in relation to the anvil, and I'm sure that may have lended some help to the ugliness of em. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 48 minutes ago, Donniev said: .The length of the boss has varied so far, I'm not measuring when I do the set down from the boss to the reins because I'm sure that the more pairs I make, the more it will become muscle memory. I filed down the extra metal on the edge of the boss, so it should be flat now. Just for the heck of it I forged these just like a right handed person would, it really only changed how I was standing in relation to the anvil, and I'm sure that may have lended some help to the ugliness of em. Muscle memory is fine, but it will come easier if you measure and mark at the start, I think you will also find that as you forge items, you get a "natural flow" to what you are doing it becomes difficult when you try to consciously make two items identical, try making a few scroll ends and you will see what I am getting at, No prizes for making it difficult for yourself, do what comes naturally. What you have there looks to be on the right track, take care with the 'ears' and forge them when hot, or they will crack and become a weak point. Enjoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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