John in Oly, WA Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 I've built a forge to go along with my forge press. I put 1" ceramic blanket inside a 20# propane tank, then Kast-o-lite 30. I made a small 3/4" burner and tried it out. It didn't get as hot as I was wanting. So I built a 1" burner and coated the inside of the forge with ITC100. I haven't tested that combination, but I'm thinking if it still doesn't get hot enough to forge weld, then I'll put two 3/4" burners in it and see if that will do it. Anything anyone sees that I'm missing on this forge set-up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 The reason for having a chamber is to contain the heat. Blank off as much of the top of the door opening as the burner can cope with. Exhaust at the bottom so the lowest temperature in the chamber is pushed out. The less of the orange glow you can see the less radiant heat loss there will be, so a long flue is more effective than a short one even if both are the same cross sectional area. I have always built my furnaces with the burner tangential to the chamber so the flame swirls around rather than giving a hotspot on the opposite face to the burner. I gave up on atmospheric burners almost immediately and went onto fan blown ones in order to better control the furnace atmosphere, not popular on here though. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John in Oly, WA Posted May 24, 2016 Author Share Posted May 24, 2016 Thanks Alan. I'll block off a bit of the opening and see how that works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 Your existing exhaust/ long bar pass through at the back looks fine, you may be able to block off the door aperture almost completely. I just stack up bits of fire brick and castable around the workpiece and do not have to worry about flue/exhaust...the fan keeps the the pressure balanced and there is evidently enough leakage. The furnaces made and sold by my farrier friend Cecil Swann were originally all atmospheric and had a fairly small exhaust slot...smaller than yours. But then, as I said I don't use atmospheric burners any more so I may well be off beam...proceed with caution as always! The build quality of your stuff leads me to think that you are well grounded and sensible enough to turn it off before anything goes bang! Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John in Oly, WA Posted May 24, 2016 Author Share Posted May 24, 2016 I have some soft fire brick I can put to use on it. Thanks, I do try to avoid unexpected bangs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 I welded some square hooks to the sides of my front opening so I can slip a single IFB snugly in and block about half the opening from the top. I have a tendency to "rub" against things when putting steel into or taking it out of the forge, so I prefer not to have things stacked up that I can easily knock over in the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John in Oly, WA Posted May 25, 2016 Author Share Posted May 25, 2016 That's a good idea Buzz. Might look into putting some kind of sliding firebrick doors on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted May 26, 2016 Share Posted May 26, 2016 If the door shape is a square with a notch cut out of one of the bottom corners you could close off the gap sound the workpiece entirely...if your rear exhaust port/pass-through can keep pace with your burner. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 Alan, Actually, you are dead wrong about blown-burners being unpopular on this group; they do take second place to atmospheric burners; mostly because NA burners have two well known builder/advocates here; one of them (me) doesn't think much of standard blown forges. But then, I'm a well known PICKY BUTT!!! I liked your reason for preferring them over my kind of burners, and would like to here more. Why don't you speak out for them, and be a voice for the people who I may be running over? Maybe I'm all wet. After all, two of the best burner systems around are fan-blown (ribbon burners, and vortex burners) Maybe standard fan-blown burners have more virtues than I know about. If you'll start a new thread, and speak you're mind on the subject, I promise not to let out a squeak of retort, no matter what you say on the subject, or what you think of me. Be there or be square. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 John, Olympia isn't very far from the place my casting group gathers at, on the first Saturday of every month. If you want to show up there with your forge, these guys, who all build there own burners and furnaces, will have a look at; interested? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 41 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said: Alan, Actually, you are dead wrong about blown-burners being unpopular on this group; they do take second place to atmospheric burners; mostly because NA burners have two well known builder/advocates here; one of them (me) doesn't think much of standard blown forges. But then, I'm a well known PICKY BUTT!!! I liked your reason for preferring them over my kind of burners, and would like to here more. Why don't you speak out for them, and be a voice for the people who I may be running over? Maybe I'm all wet. After all, two of the best burner systems around are fan-blown (ribbon burners, and vortex burners) Maybe standard fan-blown burners have more virtues than I know about. If you'll start a new thread, and speak you're mind on the subject, I promise not to let out a squeak of retort, no matter what you say on the subject, or what you think of me. Be there or be square. What me? Put my money where my mouth is? Much easier to just grumble in the corner and snipe occasionally.... First week of June I am on holiday on the Island of Arran...so will maybe take time to set down my fan blown burner manifesto, if I am not too exhausted by walking up mountains. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 I don't know if I've been invoked here or not but I'm a talky kind of guy anyway. I've been lurking on your other threads Mike sponging away without tainting things with my opinions. Anyway, I'm not a proponent of one type burner over another in general. A properly tuned burner will do the job whether you're heating your house or melting tons of iron. If you ever watch some of those '50s Movie tone videos showing American foundries you can see literally hundreds of NA burners running right beside giant gun burners. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. As I've said many times a gun burner is tied to electricity and must be re-tuned every time you turn it up or down. The weaknesses of a NA burner being more demanding to make and doesn't like either a breeze on the intake end or too much back pressure. Funny how the weakness of one type defines the strength of the other. Logical eh? Other than the basic strengths and weaknesses they are the same darned thing. The only real problem burners of any type have is the person operating it. I'm not taking shots at anybody, just stating a fact of human nature. How many times have you heard someone say, "If I had one of those I could do that." I'll bet that misconception goes back to the first hominid to see another hominid bash a gopher with a stick or knock a grouse off with a thrown rock. The tool doesn't do anything unless there's a user making it. If YOU don't know how to make it, who's problem is that? The true beauty of not knowing how is it's easily fixed, just learn. Put your concepts of how something SHOULD work in your back pocket. Exercise the: 2 ears, 2 eyes : 1 mouth ratio. One common, REALLY common mistake is to try redesigning something you don't know how to use let alone make. Some devices can be tweaked till they "work" even if they're so inefficient it's: safer, cheaper, faster and more reliable to send the job out. Propane burners are a good case in point. The "King of RanDUMB" burners and other devices are perfect examples of things he got to "?work?" but are really crummy at what they're supposed to do. If you're making a thing and it isn't working as expected, ASK. You might not even know what the device you're making is really supposed to do. Would you like a good example you probably won't believe? The Jet Ejector type burner is based on a device that's meant to pump water and draw large volume vacuum, NOT mix fuel and air for a burner flame. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 "The king of Ran Dumb burners"? I would say something about that not being very polite, if I could just stop laughing long enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 Have you looked at his . . . stuff? Were I interested enough to keep track I'd expect him to be sued into permanent poverty for some of the dumb things he shows folk how to do. Truth is I was using extreme restraint, he doesn't bring out the polite in me. He's a perfect example of someone not needing any more than a video camera and connection to be an internet "expert". He's managed to get a 3/4" burner to work(?) with a 0.025" mig tip jet. Dumb IS polite. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timgunn1962 Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 I've not watched any of his other stuff and I am not at all keen on what seems to pass for his style, but I've just watched the one where he built a 3/4" burner with a .025" mig tip jet and it looked pretty much ok to me. The use of an adjustable choke plate (which he repeatedly and rather irritatingly refers to as a regulator) seems to deal quite effectively with many of the build accuracy and tuning issues of chokeless NA burners: size the jet to burn leaner (and hotter) with the choke fully open than you are ever likely to want to run in anger, then adjust the choke in use, along with the gas pressure, to get the mixture and flame temperature you want for the job in hand. It seems to me to fall somewhere between the Frosty T and Mikey burners in concept: not as simple as the Frosty T, but with some of the user adjustability of the Mikey burner. Output for the nominal pipe size looks to be less than the full-on Mikey burner, but it should be pretty much the same as any other burner using the same .025" mig tip for a gas jet and running at similar gas pressure. Am I missing something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John in Oly, WA Posted June 1, 2016 Author Share Posted June 1, 2016 On 5/28/2016 at 11:57 AM, Mikey98118 said: John, Olympia isn't very far from the place my casting group gathers at, on the first Saturday of every month. If you want to show up there with your forge, these guys, who all build there own burners and furnaces, will have a look at; interested? I'd definitely be interested. This Saturday wouldn't work for me though - my son's 16th birthday is happening that day. Would love to learn more about metal casting as well (did I mention I built a propane tank foundry too?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 the July meeting is being planned at this time; as soon as the date is set (obviously the Fourth won't do) I will get back to you with directions. Most of us show up around nine or ten in the morning; it is more convenient to pack a lunch; it's a ways to any restaurant. The group is informal and friendly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John in Oly, WA Posted June 13, 2016 Author Share Posted June 13, 2016 Thanks Mikey. I look forward to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John in Oly, WA Posted July 13, 2016 Author Share Posted July 13, 2016 Well, I changed the mig tip in my 1" burner from an .035 to an .045. Blocked the back opening of the forge and partially blocked the front. The forge does get hotter, but goes through propane pretty quick. Maybe I need to plumb it with a secondary line and needle valve so it has an idle setting for when I'm actually hammering the hot metal, and isn't roaring the entire time. Here it is with a RR spike heating up. I think if I ever build another gas forge this size, I'll use 2" of Kaowool and 1" of Cast-o-lite 30 and two 3/4" burners mounted tangentially. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Of course, twice the burner output requires twice the fuel. Once the forge is to temperature you can just turn the burner off between heats, it won't take long to come back up to temperature. If possible close the top half of the present opening. It will not only reduce the amount of heat lost directly but there will be less ambient air drawn in the bottom by the flame flow. Yes, you'll be much happier using Kast-O-Lite 30 for the flame face and 2" of Kaowool for the backer. I have to admit I'm basing my opinion about the Kast-O-Lite 30 on the experiences of other folk here. Locally, EJ Bartell will be getting a shipment in any day now and a number of the guys from the Alaskan club are buying KastO-L-Ite 30 and I'll report our experiences. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John in Oly, WA Posted July 13, 2016 Author Share Posted July 13, 2016 I'll try out blocking the top half and turning off the burner in between heats. I like the Kast-o-lite 30, but when I built this forge, I didn't know about the heat absorption characteristics of that vs. kaowool. The Kast-o-lite is some pretty durable stuff though. Just pay attention to the water to castable ratio and ram it in firmly when you're doing your build. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Ah, nobody is born knowing this stuff, my first functional gas forge has a double liner but it's 1" Pyramid Super air set flame face backed by 1" of Kaowool powered by a 1" T. I was close but not not really very close. It worked and was, heck it still IS bullet proof it was just so far from efficient I'm thinking your current one is probably about 2x as efficient. The company and everybody who uses Kast-O-Lite products is pretty adamant about not mixing it any wetter than necessary. We talked about easy greasy shop expedient vibrators at our meeting the 9th. Vibrating the mix into the form is much more efficient and can be done drier than tapping it in with a mallet. Vibrating it in works well instead of ramming, a short length of 1/4" or 5/16" rd stock with a little bend at one end chucked in a hand drill. Turn the drill on and lay the straight end from the chuck against the form and it'll vibrate the mix into every nook and cranny. Too much bend and it'll shake the form apart and not do such a good job vibrating the mix but too little bend isn't enough vibration. It's easier than it sounds, just start with a little and increase the bend till it's right. You can watch the mix liquify and just lay down in the forms. Yeah, I learned that one in the soils lab too. A field expedient concrete vibrator. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John in Oly, WA Posted July 14, 2016 Author Share Posted July 14, 2016 I did not know that! Look forward to posts on your process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 I ended up using a little hand held air line hammer as a vibrator when I was casting mine. I floated a short wooden plank on the castable and rattled the hammer on that...I wound the attack up until it moved the mix without splattering everywhere. Splattering was the problem (and noise) when I tried rattling it on the side of the mould. The moulds I made up are from 6mm (1/4") plate. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John in Oly, WA Posted July 14, 2016 Author Share Posted July 14, 2016 I never thought about vibrating it. All the material I could find, and from the company, said ram it, so with my lack of imagination, I rammed it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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