orange Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 My son and I built this forge from some videos we found on youtube. It will heat metal fine. Its just not hot enough to weld anything. I have seen some people say a one burner forge can weld steel, but our is two burners and it still doesn't get hot enough for that. Take a look and let me know what you think the problem might be. Adam Sorry they seemed to have loaded sideways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcornell Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Your Mig tips are way too deep in your burner tubes to get an effective draw of air - your design looks like the Dave Hammer design (kind of) but his gas tip is visible from the air intakes. Your mig tips seem to be almost inside your forge. You also didn't specify the insulation used, or if you're using any reflective coating. Are you using a regulator? What gas pressure are you using? If you have a low pressure regulator suitable for a propane grill, you're not getting enough gas. It also appears that you're using white teflon tape - this is a bad mistake if you're using propane. Yellow tape is rated for propane, while is for plumbing with water. Your front door is really big too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Adam, the problem is that your rows of holes create massive turbulence. Some turbulence is needed for good fuel gas and air mixing; that would be a little turbulence, not massive amounts, which is like trying to get good performance out a car with the hand brake engaged. the other problem with a row of holes is that nearly everyone who takes this rout places their gas jet near the back of the rows, instead of mounting the jet on 1/8" pipe, so that they can slide it forward and experiment to find where its best position might be (probably in the middle of the forward holes). Probably the easiest fix at this point would be to build two Frosty "T" burners and screw these easily constructed powerful burners into the forge, in place of those poorly designed and way overly long burners you are suffering with at present. But, don't throw you present burners away; instead offer them to the first person who tells you how wonderful the design looks on YouTube. You can save them some wasted effort and money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orange Posted March 8, 2016 Author Share Posted March 8, 2016 I think I have experienced that turbulence you are talking about. The flame can be erratic at times. Probably due to the air holes. The tips aren't into the forge but they are deep into the pipe. It makes a nice blue green flame. The weird thing is that the area right below the flame isn't nearly as hot as the area around the flame. I just figured Teflon was Teflon. The door is big but it closes and there is a much smaller hole that we use to put the metal in and out. You can't really see that from the photo. The regulator is one I got from amazon. It's adjustable, but it might not be as adjustable as needed. I'll look at it and see if there is any marking that indicate the flow. Thanks, Jcornell and Mikey, I truly appreciate your input. Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orange Posted March 8, 2016 Author Share Posted March 8, 2016 Forgot to mention the forge is insulated with ceramic wool. Apparently nasty stuff for the lungs but it insulates the forge nicely. There is no reflective coating, not sure what that would even be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 You mentioned the Adam, The work and expense you've invested in that forge probably looks like a waste right now; it isn't. In fact your problems are minor and easily fixed, IF you address them one at a time. You said "It makes a nice blue-green flame. The weird thing is that the area right below the flame isn't nearly as hot as the area around the flame." A blue-green flame is a seriously reducing flame, which is shown by the fact that it has to finish combustion elsewhere in the forge interior; this is why the flame impingment area is cooler than its surrounding area. The area where the flame impinges should be hotter than its surroundings; not cooler. To prove my point, light up the forge, and then walk over to the light switch. Turn off the switch and watch all the pretty blue carbon monoxide rich flames exiting out the exhaust opening. Your next step is to build the Two "T" burners ans screw them into the forge; the other changes you need to make are simply add-on work, but I'm not giving any more advice until you act on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orange Posted March 8, 2016 Author Share Posted March 8, 2016 Thanks for the advice,Mikey. I am already call the hardware store to make sure they have the stuff for the burner design you suggested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forging Carver Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 6 hours ago, orange said: Forgot to mention the forge is insulated with ceramic wool. Apparently nasty stuff for the lungs but it insulates the forge nicely. There is no reflective coating, not sure what that would even be. Over the ceramic wool you should put casting. That will stop e wool from flaking off and going in your lungs. It should also get you to welding heat. You can also put an ir reflective coating over that which will save money and be more efficient in heating your steel. Your burner might be wrong too, or you are running propane at too low of a pressure. Hope this helps You also might want to consider looking at Wayne Coe's website for forge build plans and forge materials. If you are rebuilding the burner, try making a T Burner. I am in the middle of building a gas forge myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 Good; the next thing you'll want to do is rigidize the ceramic fiber, and then flame cure it. Rigidizer is simply fumed silca (a colloidal substance). suspended in water, with enough food coloring for you to be able to see how deeply you are penetrating the fiber blanket, when you use a spritzer to apply it. There is no need to wait for the blanket to dry, as you must heat cure it with the burners. At present, eBay has the best offers for this product. You should look up the various posts on homemade kiln wash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orange Posted March 9, 2016 Author Share Posted March 9, 2016 is this fumed silica that same as cabosil or colloidial silica? If so, I have a large quantity already. We were into making hovercrafts and used it to mix with the epoxy to give a body filler effect. I have some parts for the T-burner and I'll take some pics to see which setup looks best. Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcornell Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 Carbosil is a trade name for fumed silica - I use about a cup per gallon of water - you can always use more. I added food color from Michaels (for frosting) so I could see how much penetration I was getting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orange Posted March 9, 2016 Author Share Posted March 9, 2016 The tip in the left uses a compression fitting, But it will be longer. The tip on the right will needed to be braised, but it will be shorter. Any preferences? Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcornell Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 The expert here is Mike Porter (Mikey98118). At certain sizes he's fond of taper tips (think Tweeco) or blunt luerlock dispensing needles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 Orange, neither looks right to me. If you're building the T burner one of us doesn't understand the directions correctly. T Burner Directions finished.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 What kind of burner are you planning making? Neither of those will work in a T burner. Thanks for posting the T burner plans Buzz, it always takes me time and searching to find them. The two methods I use to mount the jets are covered in the plans. One is for connecting directly to the burner with copper tubing for fire safety, the other is for connecting with rubber hose where safe. Read and take notes BEFORE you start building, it'll save you a bunch of headaches. Once you've built a few and understand how the work is the tie to experiment. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 Adam, Frosty is the expert on "T" burners, his fittings are different from yours, but he might approve of them anyway, after you answer a few questions, I think Frosty prefers to use Tweco tapered contact tips, the same as I do, but just how important tapering is with the "T" burner is not clear, because its burner's air openings funnel air into the burner beside and in front of the MIG tip, rather than from beside and behind it like my burners; the difference is how much air must pass by the MIG tip. At any rate, such tips are easily filed to a taper by spinning in a hand drill, under a file. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 I don't extend the jets even close enough to the tube to make tapering then a factor at all. When I trim them to tune (adjust the air fuel ratio) I only round off the cut so sharp edges don't introduce turbulence. To be honest Orange the mig tips you have are the only thing appropriate to a "T" burner provided they're the correct ID. The couplers you're using to mount them to the forge are okay, I use something very similar on mine. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orange Posted March 9, 2016 Author Share Posted March 9, 2016 I am making a T-Burner. I was looking at your plans for the T burner. It seems if i use the adapters i have it will stick too far into the T. I didn't see these plans until just now. I was looking various places for them and they all seem slightly different. I'll head back to the hardware to see if they have i need. Thank Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Yeah, I've been trying to get Glenn to remove my earlier versions, especially my first, the one with the picture of the little dog in it. That one mounted the jet on lamp rod. Growing up in a machine shop and having a lathe available means I can tinker weirder stuff into a functioning gizmo than most guys. The plans Buzzkill just linked is my most current and simplest build plans. A drill press is about the most critical "machine shop" tool. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orange Posted March 10, 2016 Author Share Posted March 10, 2016 You plans are all around the net. Variations, people will say this is a frosty T, but then its a little different. Either way, last night I took some time to fashion up a new tip. I have some pics attached. The dang pics are upside down. I put the mig tip in my drill press and shortened and tampered the tip. The tip is just about halfway through 1" hole of the T. I got a 1/8 inch compression/pipe thread fitting and tapped out the one side at 1/4 - 28 UNC. The hole in the T was tapped out to 7/16 - 28 UNC. I'll have to get a nut for the tip, so it doesn't travel. You guys think this is a good start? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forging Carver Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Ah, you made the same mistake I was going to. You are not supposed to tap the flared end of the fitting. The other side is supposed to be tapped for the mig tip. The flared end of the fitting is if you are using copper tubing. You flare the end of the copper tubing and that fits over the taper at the end of the fitting. I Told you I've been studying this stuff Frosty . I sent Frosty a pm and showed him how I was going to tap the fitting, and he corrected me. Since then I have been researching plumbing parts and burners/gas forges. What I'm going to do is get a 1/8" mpt (this will be the tapped end) X 1/4" female threads to screw the rubber hose onto. Hope this helps you out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Carver: I don't want to discourage a person for wanting to help but you took HOW long to NOT read the directions? Remember I had to point this out only to find you were building a burner that didn't use a flare fitting at all. All you are going to do is confuse more people. Please leave burner help to people who actually know what they're doing. Orange: Please disregard Carver's well meaning but unnecessary advice. But yes, this is ONE of the mistakes Carver has made so far. Print out the plans if necessary, I posted photos of how the jet and fittings are prepared. Including how to gauge fittings to be easy to tap for the jets. Trimming the jets is done AFTER the burner is built to adjust the air fuel ratio for the desired flame. Unless you've built a few you can't know how long the jet might need to be. I can cut mine before assembling and only need to do some fine trimming because I've built a number . . . here. Were I to make one at your place I'd need to leave the jet full length because I'm not familiar with the variables where you live and would need the full length to tune. The largest variable is "Elevation" barometric pressure determines how much air is available to induce into the burner, the higher the pressure the less you need to tune it to draw. Another is relative humidity and humidity can do weird things. I don't have much advise about humidity, it's darned dry here. Please feel free to PM me. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orange Posted March 11, 2016 Author Share Posted March 11, 2016 Hey this one is right side up. I used the tip this way so it would fit my old fittings (save money) Do you think the bushing will disrupt air flow? I haven't tried it yet, my propane take is empty at the moment. The tip of the mig is about half way across the whole. This is what your images look like. Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcornell Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 The bushing may or may not have a sharp corner inside - if it does, this kind of messes up the air flow, which is a bad thing. Some filework on the inside of the bushing will go a long way towards improving your flow, which means your burner will work better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonkeyForge Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 jcornell makes a good point. I ran into the same issue with my 1/2 burner. Could not get the reducing T. I used files and then a rotary tool to smooth the transition between bushing and burner tube. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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