How do you forge this detail?

[fritzdecat]

I am referring to the little diamond shaped element underneath the scroll?

Maybe a set of dies under the airhammer? Hopefully there is another way

Any help appreciated. Thanks

[HWooldridge]

There are a couple of ways:

1. Forge a triangle cross section that can be slipped over the parent stock size like a collar and forge weld in place.
2. Use a butcher in top and bottom dies (this shape "^") and make a groove in two places on all sides that leaves the diamond in the middle, then draw down each remaining side. I'd probably use this second method as it is more suited to a power hammer.

[Ferrous Beuler]

Hard to tell from the pic but could be done by either of two methods.
1.) It is a collar.
2.) It is upset and swaged. Take heat and isolate on either side by quenching then upset into a bulb. Use a swageblock and top swage to form the diamond.
That would be my guess if it ts not just a collar.:)Dan.

[keykeeper]

Looks like that section of the bar would be upset quite a bit, then forged carefully using the edges of the anvil while holding the bar at about 45 degrees. Would be a lot like forging a ball on the end of a bar, without all the forging down of the points. Except that the top and bottom angles would have to be carefully shaped. That's how I would go about it by just anvil and hammer.

Now, in a perfect world, with plenty of tools available, I think I would upset the section, and use a top and bottom swage to form the angles needed. Just keep turning the bar until the upset reaches the shape and size desired, and the taper back to the original size that you want.

That would be easiest way, in my still learning, quite the noobie opinion.

[Ice Czar]

the third way which isnt forged is to grind a plate or bar to shape, drill a hole through the middle of it, plug weld it to the bar above or below, angle grind the other bar (quite a lot) weld it to the other bar and clean up the weld.

Id opt for the upset and swage ;)

[fritzdecat]

Thanks for the replies.

I am leaning to wards making triangular stock in the swage block

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Then making a collar out of that material

When I am not banging and welding I like to fly model airplanes which coincidently use alot of balsa tri stock. Too bad we can't buy ready made steel tri stock...

[GVR-4579]

When I am not banging and welding I like to fly model airplanes which coincidently use alot of balsa tri stock. Too bad we can't buy ready made steel tri stock...

Hey me too.

I think these guys got all the ways you could make that covered.

[Glenn]

Fritzdecat

Go to the top of the forum page and click on user CP
Click on edit profile
Go to the bottom of the page, enter your location and save.

We would like to know where in the world your located.

[tbrforge]

can't tell dimensionally what the base is but it looks like very thick square stock to begin with, having said that I remember a Steve Kayne quote "upsetting can be very upsetting"
Forge weld a collar and work to the triangular shape is how I would approach it. It also seems unlikely that the scroll is of the parent stock. One would need to feel it to imitate its construction but there have been enough suggestions put forth to start trying to duplicate it. Thats how we get better, do something even though we have barely an idea how it was done!

[R Funk]

I admit I have cheated and used an arc welder and 4.5" grinder to make that detail.

It turned out well and nobody really knew how it was made.

Throw it back in the forge after you do the grinding so the grinding marks are oxidizided off and a few hammer blows will remove the evidence.

I trust nobody will insist I be removed from the site do to my impure work practices.

[fritzdecat]

I trust nobody will insist I be removed from the site do to my impure work practices.

The only thing that I care about is whether or not the check is good when I sell someone my work. Like to keep it GREEN:D

[pete46]

IMPURE WORK PRACTICES! YOU SIR ARE A CHEAT!
humm how did you say you did that again?

[Ice Czar]

"upsetting can be very upsetting"

this summer I did a maybe 200 feet of rail where every 4" or so you had to upset then drift an angled pierced opening (twice top and bottom)

we started out at the forge with a quench bucket, the traditional way
then I tossed that out completely and employed a large oxy-acetylene rosebud to heat just the area I wanted to upest (about 6" up or down from the end of the stock) by leaving the rest of the bar stone cold, I was able to transfer more force to just the area I wanted to upset, with little dislocation to the rest of the stock

To xxxx with pure working practices if you've got 1200 upsets to do
(actually then we upsetted the ends as well, make that 2400) :p

[the_sandy_creek_forge]

I admit I have cheated and used an arc welder and 4.5" grinder to make that detail.

Pure and simple blasphemy!!

I've found that while "upsetting can be upsetting" It's somewhat easier (at least for me, your mileage might vary) to upset in the middle of a bar. Not sure why, but the upset doesn't seem to have as much tendency to go all lopsided when done in the middle as opposed to the end.

-Aaron @ the SCF

[Shane Stegmeier]

Traditionally a lot of that was done with forgewelded collars that were then swaged to finished shape. I am pretty good at upsetting too, and kinda enjoy doing it, but for the most part traditionally forgewelding extra material on was more common that upsetting to thicken things, upsets were common to set up scarfs for forgwelding, and were used other places where needed, but if you don't need to upset stock then don't, unless it is a design element;-)

Making a living is not cheating, sometimes it can be a little distasteful, but you have to swallow your pride and do what a man's got to do, provide for his family, if your not getting paid for traditional technics, then fabricate at will;-)

[Hofi]

There is another way to do it and it is not ''cheating'' it was done in the medieval time and i saw it done 4 years ago in a known smithy 30 miles north of Venice.
U make a two half mold from casting clay leave an inlet spout close around the square bar and cast lead inside . when cold take the mold apart for a second use hammer the lead very little and after the painting no one will see the difference .
good luck.
HOFI

[Ten Hammers]

Ruben your trick is safe with me in that I use whatever is needed. I regularly mig or gas weld and then forge that weld. I might also suggest that Hollis may be right but I might just suggest fullering a big bar and then forging down the opposite sides of the affair. The butcher would be for the exact look but I got no butcher. :)

[Ice Czar]

cast lead inside

hmmmm....and if there where a hole or two in the bar the lead could flow into (through) it would act as a anchor

lead isnt very "friendly" these days, but back then it was likely used becuase of its low melting point and availablity, If lead would work I bet copper, brass or bronze would too. You could do something a lot more complex as esily as modeling clay and making the mold.

I'm beginning to get lots of ideas here ;)

[Paragon]

What if you upset then hammer it into a beveled square hold to get the shape. Just a matter of getting the forming hole made..
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Isn't it possible to form the upset then hammer it to the shape?

Could also get some angle iron and make your own special fuller after upsetting it.

Not a cube.. don't know what I was smoking last night.. but you could still forge the double square pyramid and then weld the rods to it..

[Blacksmith Jim]

I would want to use top and bottom dies and start with larger stock. I think its great though, that there are about a dozen different methods being rattled off :P

[Ice Czar]

we do quite a bit of that kind of welding at the shop, and generally the issue is getting enough penetration, without having to do a lot of cleanup grinding

which is where plug welding one of the bars is so useful, the hole your filling gets great penetration to a thick stock where otherwise your just getting parameter penetration, then you can just do a light weld around the outside without having to worry about how well it holds. of course joining the bar to the other side generally entails a fairly serious bevel to fill to ensure penetration.

Actually forging the detail by upsetting then freehand shaping or swagging is going to be substantially stronger, more resilient and less brittle than any weld. But then welding and grinding would be much faster if the resiliency and strength aren't required.