4JS Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Just completed these thoughts, suggestions and critiques please. Also how much do you guys think I should charge for these if I were to sell them. they take me about 45 minutes to an hour each. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Just my opinion, but I would say keep those, and work on making them nicer than that before selling them. They are reminiscent of a "courting candle", so maybe approach their look to one of those. I would like them better if the spiral was more evenly spaced. Try wrapping them around a bar,or pipe next time to get the shaping correct. The feet are a bit rough too. Try for a smoother finish. This is where hammer control really comes into play. Make sure your hammer face is properly dressed, and use lighter, and lighter blows as it cools down. Each blow smoothing it out, not moving much metal. To do that you really need to watch where the hammer impacted so that the next one does not create a dent, but continues where you left off if that makes sense. Overall the design is nice, but I feel it could use some refinement to make them really marketable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 I concur with Guns. They're a nice enough design but need refinement. Uniform coil, nicer feet and maybe a better shape for legs. The handle is a little too free form, it looks like you couldn't figure out what to do with it. All in all not bad, make another few dozen and they'll start coming together for you. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4JS Posted January 9, 2016 Author Share Posted January 9, 2016 58 minutes ago, BIGGUNDOCTOR said: Just my opinion, but I would say keep those, and work on making them nicer than that before selling them. They are reminiscent of a "courting candle", so maybe approach their look to one of those. I would like them better if the spiral was more evenly spaced. Try wrapping them around a bar,or pipe next time to get the shaping correct. The feet are a bit rough too. Try for a smoother finish. This is where hammer control really comes into play. Make sure your hammer face is properly dressed, and use lighter, and lighter blows as it cools down. Each blow smoothing it out, not moving much metal. To do that you really need to watch where the hammer impacted so that the next one does not create a dent, but continues where you left off if that makes sense. Overall the design is nice, but I feel it could use some refinement to make them really marketable. Thank you guys very much what would you all recommend for the legs 16 minutes ago, Frosty said: I concur with Guns. They're a nice enough design but need refinement. Uniform coil, nicer feet and maybe a better shape for legs. The handle is a little too free form, it looks like you couldn't figure out what to do with it. All in all not bad, make another few dozen and they'll start coming together for you. Frosty The Lucky. Thank you frosty I appreciate the feed back. What would your recommendations be for the legs? Also I planned on keeping these and not selling them. Just wondering what something like these would go for price wise. I seldom sell anything unless somebody asks me to make something, mostly coat racks and such. Usually just ask enough to cover my fuel costs material and enough to buy me some more material since im just learning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Most of my work is tightly controlled and finished and I do not normally like wobbly pieces, however I am strangely attracted to the anarchic quality of these. We maybe have a similar "eye". The junction between the helix and the stem is better resolved on the one in the second and third photos (the one on the left in last two photos)...but that is just my "tightly-controlled-form attitude" speaking. A helpful thing is to look at other's work, and try and analyse and verbalise what you find good or bad about it... what you like / dislike about it... and then try and emulate the effects that you warmed towards. Make sure you keep these around to look back on as you progress and develop. Sometimes as you become more practised, you lose some of the freshness of exploration and wonder in your work. You may want to revisit them in later years. That is their most important value...far outweighing the financial return which is so dependent on factors like:- who your clientele are, whether it is for your mum or for the the local rock star. Whether it is to be sold in a gallery or off a table at the village fête. How original a concept. How many years you took to develop and refine the idea. How accurate an historic reproduction they are....Let alone mere details like how much your fuel, materials, workshop overhead and required hourly rate are. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 I agree with Alan on these! They are obviously a little crude... but I think you might look back at them one day and wish... that you could recapture their MAGIC! I think they would look just right and sell well in a rustic venue... maybe a folk art gallery? They have a certain twisted appeal! It can be very difficult to deliberately create this effect! Embrace what you are now! Someday you might want to get back here... but you probably won't be able to! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JME1149 Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 I like the concept of these. I can't quite make out from the photos but am assuming the spiral wrap piece is separate from the base and welded to it. If so, you might want to move the handle part to the bottom of the candle. As for the feet, maybe a small spiral instead of just the right angle bend. Very nice prototypes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4JS Posted January 9, 2016 Author Share Posted January 9, 2016 4 hours ago, Alan Evans said: Most of my work is tightly controlled and finished and I do not normally like wobbly pieces, however I am strangely attracted to the anarchic quality of these. We maybe have a similar "eye". The junction between the helix and the stem is better resolved on the one in the second and third photos (the one on the left in last two photos)...but that is just my "tightly-controlled-form attitude" speaking. A helpful thing is to look at other's work, and try and analyse and verbalise what you find good or bad about it... what you like / dislike about it... and then try and emulate the effects that you warmed towards. Make sure you keep these around to look back on as you progress and develop. Sometimes as you become more practised, you lose some of the freshness of exploration and wonder in your work. You may want to revisit them in later years. That is their most important value...far outweighing the financial return which is so dependent on factors like:- who your clientele are, whether it is for your mum or for the the local rock star. Whether it is to be sold in a gallery or off a table at the village fête. How original a concept. How many years you took to develop and refine the idea. How accurate an historic reproduction they are....Let alone mere details like how much your fuel, materials, workshop overhead and required hourly rate are. Alan Thank you I seem to like making things that have an almost organic/modern flow to them. Where there's slight chaos with the piece. When I started making them the two you are speaking of are the second and third. When I make others I'm going to play with forging a small cup or bowl so to speak at the bottom of the spiral. 46 minutes ago, JME1149 said: I like the concept of these. I can't quite make out from the photos but am assuming the spiral wrap piece is separate from the base and welded to it. If so, you might want to move the handle part to the bottom of the candle. As for the feet, maybe a small spiral instead of just the right angle bend. Very nice prototypes. Yes I forged out the legs them welded them to the spiral. I couldn't figure out a time effective way to forge it out of one solid piece. I was thinking I could weld on metal at the base then split it to forge out the legs and feet. i like the idea of doing a scroll for the feet or even the legs entirey. I may try that on the next ones that I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 1 hour ago, 4JS said: When I started making them the two you are speaking of are the second and third. When I make others I'm going to play with forging a small cup or bowl so to speak at the bottom of the spiral. I was referring to, and preferring the one where the helix strip maintained its flat plain and did not project beyond the stem. I found the other two, which you had twisted and projected beyond the stem to form the candle support, less satisfying. It is the interesting combination and balance of forms that I found charming. As you say(-ish), the apparent chaos of organic forms. If you achieved an accurate/regular/geometric helix and all three legs were the same shape and the stem was perfectly central and upright they would be entirely a different concern. Not better or worse but just different. The character that the maker puts into...and the viewer reads from...the piece is obviously very subjective. So in light of that, and my lifelong striving to achieve less-is-more, I would not add a cup to these. Or indeed scroll the feet. They work just fine as they are for me. But that is me, and I would not want you to take any notice of some bloke a few thousand miles away...follow your own star as they say. I will be interested to follow your development of them. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Maybe I was looking at the three as a set rather than three individual experiments so the differences in legs stuck out more to me. I usually try for more consistency in overall shape. If my legs are going to be three 90* angles then I make clean distinct 90* angles. Not sharp bends but clean angles between the straight elements. If they're going to be graceful curves then that's the direction I take the entire leg. I find it hard to make say a 90* transition from the holder to the leg the a graceful curve to the vertical and another 90* to the foot. That can work but I find it harder to make look appealing. How are you at forge welding? If you take the 3 legs and make a short faggot weld, the turn into the shaft. You'll have the remaining ends above the weld to use for integral candle holder helix, bottom candle stop and handle. If you're using strip stock as it appears in the pics faggot welding becomes much harder for the void in the center so fill it with a piece of Rd stock. It's easy to trim and clean up later. Of course you can turn a little extra on the bottom into another decorative element. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 One issue I had is I keep looking at these a "courting candles" and so the helix has issues. Works much better if I keep telling myself that the helix is just the candle cup---in which case they extend up quite a ways leaving a lot of candle occluded by them. How about a tighter lower helix? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4JS Posted January 10, 2016 Author Share Posted January 10, 2016 2 hours ago, Frosty said: Maybe I was looking at the three as a set rather than three individual experiments so the differences in legs stuck out more to me. I usually try for more consistency in overall shape. If my legs are going to be three 90* angles then I make clean distinct 90* angles. Not sharp bends but clean angles between the straight elements. If they're going to be graceful curves then that's the direction I take the entire leg. I find it hard to make say a 90* transition from the holder to the leg the a graceful curve to the vertical and another 90* to the foot. That can work but I find it harder to make look appealing. How are you at forge welding? If you take the 3 legs and make a short faggot weld, the turn into the shaft. You'll have the remaining ends above the weld to use for integral candle holder helix, bottom candle stop and handle. If you're using strip stock as it appears in the pics faggot welding becomes much harder for the void in the center so fill it with a piece of Rd stock. It's easy to trim and clean up later. Of course you can turn a little extra on the bottom into another decorative element. Frosty The Lucky. When I was making them the initial concept for me was something in say a witches shop so to speak. To almost make look as though they could come alive and walk away so to speak. No no too good at forge welding only tried it a couple times so far and it didn't come out very well. I have done it on a fire poker once with some success. It's a learning process for me that I've been doing by trial and error with the help of the forum, books and YouTube. 1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said: One issue I had is I keep looking at these a "courting candles" and so the helix has issues. Works much better if I keep telling myself that the helix is just the candle cup---in which case they extend up quite a ways leaving a lot of candle occluded by them. How about a tighter lower helix? Had no clue what a courting candle was until I saw it mentioned in the replies I actually had to google them to see what they were. i used the helix as the cup and seems to have a nice effect on the lighting as the candle burns down honestly. What are courting candles traditionally for and what's the significance of the helix with them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 A courting candle was a timer. The candle rests on a round plug that has a piece sticking out that engages the helix so you can raise and lower the candle. The rather apocryphal story goes that a father would set how much time a suitor could spend with his daughter---till the candle burned down to the iron helix; but they were used in many other situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said: A courting candle was a timer. The candle rests on a round plug that has a piece sticking out that engages the helix so you can raise and lower the candle. The rather apocryphal story goes that a father would set how much time a suitor could spend with his daughter---till the candle burned down to the iron helix; but they were used in many other situations. I think we have had this discussion before... I came to the conclusion that the helix was either to give added support to a long candle at the outset, or to maintain the height of the light source by winding it up the spiral, to keep it in line with a water sphere or reflector as a work light. When I made a series of helical candle holders (admittedly a shorter helix than that of a "courting" candle) they worked as I intended...as self cleaning sconces...the candle burnt down and then fell out of the bottom when used up. So the helix did not act as an extinguisher on the candles I used. So as a timing device it would not be very precise... The timing device and candles I am aware of reputedly gave rise to the phrase..."could of heard a pin drop"...a pin stuck in the side of a candle fell out to signify the end of an auction, the last bidder before the pin dropped got the deal. It may well be equally apocryphal, but it does at least work as a timer. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 if the pin worked as an indication of time, then reaching the iron serves as an indication of time. I certainly never used the term extinguished. (and did use the term apocryphal I think keeping the flame at the correct height for a water globe is much more likely myself...) You may recall the time candles King Alfred the Great had made so he wouldn't miss the canonical hours of prayer during the night. They are well described and used neither pin nor helix no extinguishing to mark the hours. Now where extinguishing does play a part would be a candle auction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 No, you are right the extinguish notion was all my own assumption on how the courting candle timed tryst was supposed to end...but we all know what they say about people that assume things. I was thinking that it would signal to those outside the parlour that the swain had to go, but maybe it was just for the Duenna to watch. The lovers certainly would not be watching it. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4JS Posted January 10, 2016 Author Share Posted January 10, 2016 So it seems a courting candle should have a moveable holder within the helix and the spirals should be almost completely horizontal at points to maintain the height of the candle. I also just just found this while researching a courting candles origins But Henry Prebys, curator of domestic life at the Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield Village in Michigan, says the term courting candle is more folklore than fact. The Chicago Tribune debunks this legend nicely in a June 28, 1998 article, so I’ll quote: Although the candleholder indeed may have been used as a time-keeper for suitors, it was not intentionally made for that purpose. Origin: The candleholder with its spiral shape was popular in Germany before being introduced to the American Colonies by the early Pennsylvania-German settlers. According to Prebys, the appeal of the spiral shape was its practicality. The candle easily could be twisted into the holder. If the candle was soft, the shape of the holder prevented it from falling over. A slide connected to the holder also helped move the candle up or down, thus utilizing as much of the candle as possible. This was important because candles were costly. Prebys notes that candles were not the preferred source of lighting during the Colonial period because of their cost. Most households used fat lamps, small dishes containing fat or oil and a wick. Fat lamps were more practical and far less costly than candles. Prebys explains that candles were expensive because they required certain skills to make and were labor-intensive and time-consuming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 There needs to be enough friction that the candle will stay at a fixed height; but I think the "courting" part is really an urban legend. Just like we have the horseshoe nail "salt spoons" and Sherman's troops knocking horns off anvils... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 17 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: There needs to be enough friction that the candle will stay at a fixed height; but I think the "courting" part is really an urban legend. Just like we have the horseshoe nail "salt spoons" and Sherman's troops knocking horns off anvils... I thought there was a follower...a disc on which the candle sat, with a lug on either side with one or both lugs forming a lever handle. The lug/handle engaged in the helix and set the height. So the helix just acted as a guard / guide rather than friction grip. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 Alan, those are the ones I have seen. The platform the candle sat on had a pin that protruded out the side of the helix allowing adjustment up and down. When the candle reached the top of the helix , it was time to leave. 4JS, if they would come alive, and walk away they need better looking feet. Put some toes on them , and make them look like feet. . I can dig the zoomorphic, George Orr, freeflowing look, I do it with my ceramics. If you want to stick with that, then just work on the overall fit and finish of the piece. Pay attention to hammer marks, and edges. Rounded, or beveled edges can make a big difference to the overall look of a piece. A simple incised line can even do it. I am getting turned off by the term organic nowadays, it is getting overused for so many things today. Nothing against you , as that is what you are looking for, but I am finding myself using it less and less now. In a true sense of the term it is fine, but it seems everything is becoming an organic experience. Too bad we are not more like the Brits and kept a more varied lexicon than what we have today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4JS Posted January 10, 2016 Author Share Posted January 10, 2016 Biggundoctor maybe on the next ones but I'll have to name me some tools for that first! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodOlEagle Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 I like the wild whimsical Look. To me they look like something out of Mickey Mouse’s “The Sorcerer's Apprentice” I expect them to be marching around on the shelf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4JS Posted January 10, 2016 Author Share Posted January 10, 2016 14 minutes ago, GoodOlEagle said: I like the wild whimsical Look. To me they look like something out of Mickey Mouse’s “The Sorcerer's Apprentice” I expect them to be marching around on the shelf. Thank you I appreciate the compliment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 I get the walking candle stick impression, you did that well. "The Sorcerers Apprentice" exactly, maybe make a bucket the handle can hold. You have a good idea once you've made a few dozen they'll start to come together. I expect your friends and relatives will have all the candle holders they can use by time you have it mastered. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 A couple of buckets for toothpicks--make a set to stride down the center of the table! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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