Ice Czar Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 is why cant we use a metal with a higher melting point to smelt the other one in? Like smelting bronze in a steel crucible actually we do that all the time...sort of 1. its easier to form a refractory than to fabricate a metal container refractory is generally backed up by a metal container, the refractory being sacrificial 2. most refractories contain metal, or more commonly metal oxides, aluminium, magnesium, chromium ect 3. unoxidized metals at a high rate of temperature will tend to oxidize, from air, trapped gases, oxides in the melt ect 4. the overall rate of chemical activity (whatever it is) ramps up with temperature, its known as the Arrhenius equation and forms the basis of most time to failure calculations, everything from computer chips to bearings The general rule of thumb, without solving the equation, is that for every 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Bennett Posted January 6, 2008 Author Share Posted January 6, 2008 There ya go. Much better answer. I just do this stuff by the seat of my pants. Speaking of oxides.. I want some bulk, niobium oxide. I have never seen a more heat resistant material in my life! If you add niobium to a melt, make sure it's free of all oxide. it will totally wreck a melt otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Czar Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 Speaking of oxides.. I want some bulk, niobium oxide. I have never seen a more heat resistant material in my life! If you add niobium to a melt, make sure it's free of all oxide. it will totally wreck a melt otherwise.pretty too hmmm... I see reference to an aluminothermic reaction with nobium pentoxide you want it for the alloy or the refractory? (the link of course is for others to keep on track) ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Bennett Posted January 6, 2008 Author Share Posted January 6, 2008 Funny you should mention niobium oxide as a reactant. Oxides can be either, or both. I can make a refractory from aluminum oxide, but aluminum is the main engine that fires the candle... Experience and a a touch of chutzpahs is all that's needed. BTW, WHO ARE YOU? A blacksmith that knows the intimacy of fire:confused:, or some master at Google-fu? :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Bennett Posted January 6, 2008 Author Share Posted January 6, 2008 ha, ya.. I dont get it you're definately leagues ahead of my understanding of metallurgy.. good luck on your experimentations! and you're the same person from D-foggs site right? with the star chamber forge.. nice seeing you here! Yep. That's me. The star chamber works better than expected. Don't understand the whole Theology, but what ever works..;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RainsFire Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 Funny you should mention niobium oxide as a reactant. Oxides can be either, or both. I can make a refractory from aluminum oxide, but aluminum is the main engine that fires the candle... Experience and a a touch of chutzpahs is all that's needed. BTW, WHO ARE YOU? A blacksmith that knows the intimacy of fire:confused:, or some master at Google-fu? :confused: He is the Ice czar! cool, nice seein ya here J. Bennet out of curiousity, is your start chamber furnace an orrigional design? It'd be cool if you could paten it. Heh, I was just reviewing your posts on the other forum, and I finally understand what your doing with your furnace design!! I'm fairly proud of myself now lol.. just wondering, could you have used propane to heat the crucible? instead of the tuyers and charcoal? or would it not hit enough heat? just wondering, it'd be cool to make a more "permanent" design using something like a gas or wvo furnace blasting around your crucible (contained) just as a secondary heat. have you taken metallurgical related classes? you seem really knowledgeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Bennett Posted January 6, 2008 Author Share Posted January 6, 2008 He is the Ice czar! cool, nice seein ya here J. Bennet out of curiousity, is your start chamber furnace an orrigional design? It'd be cool if you could paten it. Heh, I was just reviewing your posts on the other forum, and I finally understand what your doing with your furnace design!! I'm fairly proud of myself now lol.. just wondering, could you have used propane to heat the crucible? instead of the tuyers and charcoal? or would it not hit enough heat? just wondering, it'd be cool to make a more "permanent" design using something like a gas or wvo furnace blasting around your crucible (contained) just as a secondary heat. have you taken metallurgical related classes? you seem really knowledgeable. Yes, I have patent pending. I couldn't find any other furnace design close, so what the heck. You can use propane burners. I like charcoal because it gives serious btu's. I might even use an oil burner. It's real versatile. I can change the shape to accomodate any situation. I know little about metallurgy. That's one reason I join these boards:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Czar Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 BTW, WHO ARE YOU? A blacksmith that knows the intimacy of fire:confused:, or some master at Google-fu? :confused: a long and sordid tale, lets just say I'm a seeker"Knowledge is of two kinds. We know a subject ourselves, or we know where we can find information upon it." - Samuel Johnson Ive yet to play with thermite, but reasoning suggests that oxides in the refractories would interact with the reducing agent and spall the refractory into the melt, leading me to think your looking for refractories where this is minimized? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Bennett Posted January 6, 2008 Author Share Posted January 6, 2008 Hey thanks. I bookmarked that site. Yeah, i think I'm pretty much stuck with MgO. I made a refractory out of wood ash and charcoal. Worked very well. The problem was that the liquid iron absorbed HUGE amounts of phosphorous. The 5000 degree furnace cement from Mcmaster is ok, but impart copper and other bad things into the melt. MgO is very inert and even though it's melting point is rated @ 5k, I think you need a little more than that to liquefy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Czar Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Hey thanks. I bookmarked that site.warning its not an easy site to navigate...by design in fact without this you'll never find it all ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RainsFire Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 cool site, I wish I had some time to check it out.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Note that just because something has a higher melting point doesn't mean it won't dissolve in something with a lower melting point. Copper dissolves in molten Al to a surprising degree. In steelmaking the composition of the furnace walls, and the slag has a lot of effect on the final products, hence the "acid" processes used to make steel from low phosphorus materials that used silica walled furnaces and the "basic" processes that can deal with phosphorus that used magnesia or hard fired dolomite walls. Note that within 15 years after the basic process was invented England lost it's 100 year old title of greatest producer of steel to both the USA and Germany who had Phosphorus containing ores. J. I'm sorry I mis remembered. The book I cited you mentions solid magnesia blocks for furnaces but not how they were made. It did mention using coal tar to stabilize the hard burnt dolomite blocks before they were fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceDragon Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 Just make it on your own… It’s not rocket science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott NC Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 That's a 14 year old conversation. You should say "Hi" on the "Introduce Yourself" forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWISTEDWILLOW Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 Howdy from eastern Oklahoma, and welcome to the forum! if you decide to follow mr Scotts suggestion to introduce yourself I have another suggestion, you might wanna take some time to look over the (Read This First Thread) it’s full of information on how to navigate the forum and gives you a idea on how things work around here, it will set you up for success and keep you from running afoul of the mods, On anothor note, we really like pictures here! Anvils…forges… cats sleeping on anvils or forges!!! and!…. peoples how tos on refractories! could you show an tell us how and what you do for a 5000 degree refractory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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