Michael Cochran Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 The other day I finally got some time in my shop for the first time in a month. I decided I wanted to retry a project that failed on me once before and thought I'd learned what I did wrong the first time but I think I was wrong. I have access to used reciprocating saw blades on a regular basis and have developed a pretty good sized collection. I started saving them for attempts at patternwelding for learnin pattern development before using bought steel. To the point, I cleaned up some blades removing all the leftover bits of paint and removed any rust that might've been on them and then I scuffed them lightly with an orbital sander with 80 grit paper. I then tied a stack together using bailing wire and started a slow heat. As soon as it started getting warm (before it got to red heat) i sprinkled 20 mules on it and started bring it up to welding heat. After letting it soak for a few minutes and seeing it look as if it was startin to sweat I took my billet out and tapped it quickly with light but solid blows I got it to stick. I flexed it again and took it back to the fire and let it come back up to heat when I repeated my initial weld using a slightly heavier hammer. Everything seemed fine and felt solid until I went to make my fold. I cut part way through with my hot cut and started folding it over when layers started splitting apart. I tapped it all back together refluxed and tried welding it again. This time the layers started sliding on me and I could not get them to stick again. So now I've wasted well over an hour on this billet that is no longer any good since its a scaled over now and I'm sure it is in between the layers that didn't weld bad. In spite of that i would like to know what I did wrong so I don't waste any more time. The fire was made with charcoal I made from spruce and pine dimensional lumber. I didn't use any pressure treated lumber or hardwoods just clean white spruce and pine.The same day I tried to weld up a San Mai billet from some mild steel and an old file. Again the welds felt solid and it seemed like all way good bit I noticed hairline joints when I started cleaning up the edges with a grinder. I'm not too sure how good the welds here are but I'm thinking they're not as solid as I thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 1st lesson in using junk steels. Some alloys will not weld to each other. Those blades most likely have a little juju in them (cobalt usually) that gives them a little red hardness. These alloys effect and in some cases will not allow forge welding. Try slipping another type of steel in between (like pallet banding or better yet a small file). That should help weld it up, if they can be welded. Keep in mind, you'll probably only get one or two folds before you loose the carbon steel to scaling and the next fold will be the saw blades. And as you see, they don't stick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted September 21, 2015 Author Share Posted September 21, 2015 (edited) I appreciate the suggestion. I do have some banding I have to test and see how good it is. I thought about trying some of that 'Alaskan flux' in the flux thread but I know that would probably affect pattern development but I might try again and use it for spite. As far as the alloy for the blade I did look up the specs on it, the information provided in the MSDS shows the max % for each ingredient not a range. The MSDS I found the info in was for all the blades made by that company so I don't know if they all have all this stuff or if they just put it all in one file as a just in case kind of thing.Carbon 2%Chromium 5%Cobalt 9%Iron 90%Manganese 2%Molybdenum 10%Nickel 2%Silicon 2%Tungsten 7%Vanadium 3% Edited September 21, 2015 by M Cochran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 umm NO you dont have 132% content. Try reading and posting that report again, missing details is a good possibility why you failed in the welding. you had a good start but didnt finish the weld. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fergy Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 It does say max percentage Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Chrome and Nickel make alloys that are difficult to weld to itself. Really what you need is to find a local patternwelder who can watch you and see what's wrong. Otherwise it's like me saying to just do it like this and then this and then this---you got my hand waving? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted September 21, 2015 Author Share Posted September 21, 2015 umm NO you dont have 132% content. Try reading and posting that report again, missing details is a good possibility why you failed in the welding. you had a good start but didnt finish the weld.I figured you might say that lol. I know it adds up to an impossible number but as I said the paper is for all the different blades they make and as such the content will be different to some extent between them. As far as the weld goes, you're saying I wasn't patient enough? Are you referring to the blades or the San Mai? On the blades I did make several attempts to close it back up but I think I scaled up in between the gaps making it stick less. Chrome and Nickel make alloys that are difficult to weld to itself. Really what you need is to find a local patternwelder who can watch you and see what's wrong. Otherwise it's like me saying to just do it like this and then this and then this---you got my hand waving?Unfortunately, no, I don't see what you're doing. My eyes are not that good . The next time I try this ill do a smaller stack and see if I can't get my camera set up to be able to show what I'm doing. I think I'll also put some of my strapping in between to see if that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 the report as-is, is useless for steel ID.Trying again smaller isn't better, the larger mass help hold heat giving you more time. What I was referring too about not finishing is like I suggest to my students to go back over things after you think you got it and do it all over again to make sure its welded, also by drawing out the billet a bit more you are exposing virgin steel to the weld, so more surface contact t bond, breaking up any scale. Look at the photo you posted,the 2 outer layers look great. the gaps are where you only have one welding course over it... something to think about, you are getting there, dont give up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted September 21, 2015 Author Share Posted September 21, 2015 I'll definitely give it another go, I'm definitely not givin up. I hope to one day make something that im not embarassed to say I made. For right now I am almost ashamed to say I'm a blacksmith or a bladesmith simply because I feel im not quite either but more of a cyber apprentice. I'm looking for local smith who can and is willing to allow me to learn from them. The last smith I asked if he would be willing to spare a little time was more than a little rude about saying no. He gave me some mystery steel and told me to have fun with it and that was that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Well boss, if your in the T-town area one weekend give me a holler. Also plan on attending Batsons this April at Tannehill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheoRockNazz Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I'll definitely give it another go, I'm definitely not givin up. I hope to one day make something that im not embarassed to say I made. For right now I am almost ashamed to say I'm a blacksmith or a bladesmith simply because I feel im not quite either but more of a cyber apprentice. You better call yourself a blacksmith, not enough of us as is There are definitely spots where the steel is starting to stick. I would say focus on successfully welding up a san mai billet and then move on to more layers. The only reason that your first attempt at san mai failed was because you didn't grind off the teeth. It's important that the two layers are clean and have the same surface area, otherwise one face will constantly be moving and shifting.Try welding a clean file with mild steel, then a file and mild steel with saw band shims, then move on to low layer damascus. There's going to be a temptation to rush to more advanced stuff but it's important to get used to the way the layers want to shift before tackling a fat stack of em. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted September 22, 2015 Author Share Posted September 22, 2015 J, I don't usually get to Elephant Country but I'll definitely give you a holler if I do. Come to think of it Elephant Country is actually pretty wide spread I know of a few fans in Colorado lol.Nazz, I thought about trying to grind the teeth off but to be honest I thought that leaving them would give the mild steel jacket more surface to hold to. Next time I know better. Sooner or later im gonna have to get some stuff together and build me a belt grinder before I burn up my orbital sander or my arms.Thanks everyone for your suggestions, they have been noted and I'll definitely put them to use on the next attempt i make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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