Tuning a Diamondback Ironworks Forge

[LibrariaNPC]

I've been using my two burner blacksmith forge from Diamondback Ironworks since January, and I've been enjoying the ease of use so far. What I still haven't grasped is "tuning" it to allow forge welding and, to a lesser degree, reducing scale (I think I'm getting the hang of that part).

From what I can tell, I adjust the choke plates on top of the forge to aid in the oxygen/propane ratio, correct? So far, I've cut both burners to about 30% opening and run between 7-10psi, and I get a nice orange heat with minimal scale (depending on the material and external temps), but not white. Not sure if there's a point I'm missing here or something I haven't learned yet.

If anyone has some input to get the most out of this forge, I'd really appreciate it!

[ThomasPowers]

What did they say when you asked them about it?

[LibrariaNPC]

I was told that the choke plates would help with scaling, and that the forge could reach welding temps. I didn't have a need for it to reach this point until recently, so I was more concerned about reducing scale and practicing forging things.

[Frosty]

How much pressure have you tried? Closing the chokes down till the forge has a reducing atmosphere is all that's necessary to provide a good welding environment. It shouldn't reduce the temp from yellow to orange. That's say you're closing it up too much.

Shine up a relatively thin piece of steel and put it in the hot forge. If it scales inside the forge close the chokes a LITTLE. If it doesn't scale at all it's good. Hot steel WILL scale up when you expose it to air, no help for it unless you want to keep it covered in flux. It works but it's messy and likes burning folk anywhere close.

Once you get the air fuel ratio adjusted turning the pressure up or down won't effect it appreciably. Turn the pressure up till it's hot enough to do the job. Partially closing the doors will help as well you want to keep as much heat IN the forge as possible.

I've never heard anything but good about Diamondback but there's always a first time. If you can NOT get it hot enough give them a call.

Frosty The Lucky.

[LibrariaNPC]

Thanks, Frosty!

I haven't tried anything higher than 12 PSI, as another member here on IFI said that should be more than enough to weld. Again, as I haven't needed it, I haven't tried it, and all I've gotten was "you need to tune it." 

So if I close it too much, I'll get a lower temp (and possibly flames wafting out)? Just checking, as I've been tinkering with it on and off and saw that happen whenever it was too closed. I'll try shining up a bit of steel and seeing what happens; I know scaling is almost a given (nature of the beast), but I'm working on reducing it so I have a better finished product.

The steps of becoming a better smith, ne?

[matto]

Try a bigger bottle.  Do you get  freeze up??  I get welding heat at about 7psi with my diamond back.  Normal forging is at about 4-5psi.  I run a hundred pound tank.  Love the forge to

[LibrariaNPC]

Freezing has occurred from time to time, and it's a major problem when I'm down to half a tank (at which point I'm cranking it up to full just to maintain the 10 PSI).

 

I don't really have the space for a bigger tank; anything bigger than a 20 is going to be hard to store in my apartment. Trust me, I'd love to go bigger, but it's not in the cards until I move (which means new job, selling my body to science, or turning blacksmithing into a profitable full-time job). 

[matto]

Do you have the ability to set the tank in some water?  It has helped me if I am using a small tank at a demo.  Stick it in my quinch tank.

[LastRonin]

I put my 20 gal tank in water to keep it from freezing up. Just be sure to have it secured so that it can't tip over. I understand that could be a very bad thing.

[DSW]

Stupid forbidden again... 8 edits to get most of the original text to save...

I can also see your tank has an OPV valve. If you can find one of the older cylinders with the non triangular hand wheels you may get better gas flow. Also OPV valves are very picky some times about sitting level. If the cylinder is placed on a slope, the pivot in the OPV valve can close part way. I've seen this quite often with grills when people don't put the cylinder in right, or move the grill over onto a good slope, then wonder why the grill just doesn't work right any more...

Older cylinders with the non triangular valve wheels are getting harder to find but occasionally still show up from time to time. Occasionally you'll get flack at teh fill station over non OPV valved cylinders, but there is an exemption in the regs for cylinders used for welding and heating that allows their use. Bigger cylinders almost never have OPV valves on them, usually because they are for higher flow uses and the OPV can cut down flow.

As far as size, you can manifold multiple small cylinders together to give you the same results as a larger cylinder. Keep your eyes open for an old travel trailer at a junk yard. Often the bigger ones have 2 20 lb or larger cylinders ganged together. You can get the parts cheap that way.  I've been looking for a bigger 40 lb cylinder off a travel trailer to upgrade my cylinders.

Edited September 15, 2015 by DSW

[rjs]

I looked at these forges at the diamondback web site and it appears the pressure guage is at the regulator and that there is also a control valve  (needle/ball?) very near the burners true?  Do you have this valve all of the way open?  If not try that.

As long as your guage pressure at the regulator output  remains constant (where you want it to be) then tank freeze up is not the issue. 

I have seen crud clog up needle valves and jets requiring maintenance.

Bob

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

w

bob

[LibrariaNPC]

Do you have the ability to set the tank in some water?  It has helped me if I am using a small tank at a demo.  Stick it in my quinch tank.

I put my 20 gal tank in water to keep it from freezing up. Just be sure to have it secured so that it can't tip over. I understand that could be a very bad thing.

I haven't tried it yet, but I also don't have a big enough bucket/tote for it at the moment. When I have anything out for quenching, it's either a turkey fryer with canola oil (normally working with high carbon steel) or a smaller-than-my-tank bucket of water.

Stupid forbidden again... 8 edits to get most of the original text to save...

I can also see your tank has an OPV valve. If you can find one of the older cylinders with the non triangular hand wheels you may get better gas flow. Also OPV valves are very picky some times about sitting level. If the cylinder is placed on a slope, the pivot in the OPV valve can close part way. I've seen this quite often with grills when people don't put the cylinder in right, or move the grill over onto a good slope, then wonder why the grill just doesn't work right any more...

Older cylinders with the non triangular valve wheels are getting harder to find but occasionally still show up from time to time. Occasionally you'll get flack at teh fill station over non OPV valved cylinders, but there is an exemption in the regs for cylinders used for welding and heating that allows their use. Bigger cylinders almost never have OPV valves on them, usually because they are for higher flow uses and the OPV can cut down flow.

As far as size, you can manifold multiple small cylinders together to give you the same results as a larger cylinder. Keep your eyes open for an old travel trailer at a junk yard. Often the bigger ones have 2 20 lb or larger cylinders ganged together. You can get the parts cheap that way.  I've been looking for a bigger 40 lb cylinder off a travel trailer to upgrade my cylinders.

No real luck with junkyards around here (apparently they aren't open to the public), but I'll keep it in mind when I'm out and about looking for things at the markets and in general. 

Amusingly enough, when my tank starts to get iced or runs low, turning it at an angle tends to keep things going.

I looked at these forges at the diamondback web site and it appears the pressure guage is at the regulator and that there is also a control valve  (needle/ball?) very near the burners true?  Do you have this valve all of the way open?  If not try that.

As long as your guage pressure at the regulator output  remains constant (where you want it to be) then tank freeze up is not the issue. 

I have seen crud clog up needle valves and jets requiring maintenance.

Bob

I usually have the the one nearest the burners turned up enough that I feel like it'll fall out if I turn it much more.

Any suggestion on what to look out for and how to perform the basic maintenance on something like this?

 

Thanks again for the replies, everyone!

[Frosty]

Elevation can make a big enough difference to need to be tuned out. It's been my experience a 20lb. tank is generally good for a single 3/4" burner for a couple hours on a nice day. A 40lb. tank is good for significantly longer and can run two for a couple hours without pressure drop due to tank temp.

Standing the tank in water is a simple and effective solution but packing a tub can be a serious PITA especially if storage room is tight. However you can buy "collapsible water buckets" in a variety of sizes. This is the results of a quick Yahoo search for those terms. https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=A86.JySWYPhVEkkAZXAnnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTByNWU4cGh1BGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--?p=Collapsible+Water+Buckets&fr=yhs-mozilla-001&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001

Sorry, tiny URL doesn't like me this morning. Lots of people use the things from ranchers, campers, "preppers", etc. you can find them at outdoors, sporting goods, farm and ranch, etc. suppliers.

Frosty The Lucky.

[LibrariaNPC]

Thanks Frosty! I'll look into this as an option.

 

Not sure how well it will work come winter, though, as I set up in the yard. Heh.

[Frosty]

Yeah, winter can be a problem. You COULD make a teapot rack to sit on the forge. It might be enough to keep the bucket thawed and serve the double purpose of keeping YOU thawed with a nice steamy beverage on breaks.

I'd say that's what I do but a tea pot fits in the heat exchanger on the barrel stove as does a foil wrapped sandwich. Warm is a good thing in winter.

Frosty The Lucky.

[rjs]

 

I haven't tried it yet, but I also don't have a big enough bucket/tote for it at the moment. When I have anything out for quenching, it's either a turkey fryer with canola oil (normally working with high carbon steel) or a smaller-than-my-tank bucket of water.

No real luck with junkyards around here (apparently they aren't open to the public), but I'll keep it in mind when I'm out and about looking for things at the markets and in general. 

Amusingly enough, when my tank starts to get iced or runs low, turning it at an angle tends to keep things going.

I usually have the the one nearest the burners turned up enough that I feel like it'll fall out if I turn it much more.

Any suggestion on what to look out for and how to perform the basic maintenance on something like this?

 

Thanks again for the replies, everyone!

 

 

I usually have the the one nearest the burners turned up enough that I feel like it'll fall out if I turn it much more.

Any suggestion on what to look out for and how to perform the basic maintenance on something like this?

 

Thanks again for the replies, everyone!

with the propane turned off find out if your valve has a mehanical stop or if it falls out at full open.  assuming it has a stop try your forge at the WFO setting.  

earlier frosty mentioned altitude,  a good point.  How high are you?

[ThomasPowers]

New Jersey, USA has no altitude that would make a difference barring him forging in an aeroplane, dirigable, blimp, etc...

Wiki: "High Point, in Montague, Sussex County, New Jersey, in the Skylands Region, is the highest elevation in the state at 1,803 feet 

[Frosty]

New Jersey, USA has no altitude that would make a difference barring him forging in an aeroplane, dirigable, blimp, etc...

Wiki: "High Point, in Montague, Sussex County, New Jersey, in the Skylands Region, is the highest elevation in the state at 1,803 feet 

Too true Thomas but rjs didn't ask about his elevation he asked how HIGH he is.

Reminds me of greeting friends in the 60's-70's.

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

I don't recall NJ as being one of the states that has ok'd pot use---unlike Alaska, Colorado and Washington. (had to look that up...)  I lived in Holmdel NJ 1972-1976

I don't believe the Hidenburg had an active forge on it at the time it immolated.

[Frosty]

We didn't care much about legality back in the day and I don't think finding the intoxicant of your choice is hard in NJ, then or now.

Induction might have had something to do with the Hindenburg, probably not a forge though.

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

it was a *HUGE* *MANATEE*!  (and sticking with the flavour of this site to not encourage risky behaviour save for goosing moose!)

[LibrariaNPC]

RJS, ThomasPowers already answered that. I'm not too high or too low for any issue at hand.

Frosty, I've been contemplating making racks for things, but it's pretty precariously balanced between the uneven surface (the ground isn't level) and balancing it on firebricks/cement board (again, don't have the tools to really fabricate something better, and lacking the space to store said fabricated object). I have kept sandwiches warm on top of forges, though, which is always brilliant.

[KYBOY]

We hae had that same forge for about 7 years. Ours dosnt have the choke plates..Welded in it many times..Welding pressure for us starts at about 15psi...Usually burn it at about 18psi to get up to temp and then even it out. Lisa likes it better than coal(Im the opposite) and its been used a lot..On its third lining in fact..Get your self a piece of kiln shelving to save your floor..Flux is bad on the brick.

[LibrariaNPC]

Yeah, flux is bad on bricks. I was told to either use another brick or to create a lining. Got some fun instructions on that, so I'll try it out at some point (need a place to store the materials).

I'll try cranking it up when I fire it up next to see if I can get a bit of mild steel to a welding temp.

I've only done welding in coal so far with mixed results, so I'm curious to see how it works out in gas. That, and I'm a ways away from getting a coal forge. Heh.

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning Librarian,

I'm sorry I haven't brought the Book back that I borrowed last Tuesday.

Forget the magic, Use a metal garbage can to put your propane Bottle in (you could use a plastic pail, but you will learn why not to, the first time you accidently rest a piece of HOT on the side of the bucket), put a rod through the handle so it won't fall on it's side (you DON'T WANT LIQUID PROPANE). Make a bracket for a Tea pot on top of the forge, use a large coffee can filled with water, dump the boiling water in the garbage can of water to slow down the cooling of the bottle. Hang a soda pop or a wobbly pop in the Garbage can to cool it off. Use tongs to handle the Coffee Can, not your mitten. You can use your mitten on your cold drink though. Don't be afraid to jack the pressure up when you want to weld, back it off for normal forging.

You will find the Garbage can can also be your quench tank, it doesn't mind a little warmth. The Propane bottle will change height, depending on the amount of liquid in it.

Neil