Ultra Newbie Coffee Can/SS Trash Can forge advice

[Elvirth]

Greetings, wise people and not-so-wise ones. I'm a 21-yr old living in SE Washington, just looking to learn a few new life skills. I've been fascinated with blacksmithing, especially as it pertains to knife-making, for a few years now, but never really thought I'd ever be equipped to start learning/teaching myself. Then I found out that coffee can forges exist, so I figure I'll give it a shot. I have a fairly decently mechanical mind, but not a lot of real-world experience or expertise, so I'm just planning to use resources like this forum to help me gain some passable proficiency. I'm only looking into this as a hobby, so I'm trying to save as much money as possible.

Now, I've been scooting around on this forum for a while trying to gather information, and so far I've only found a few tidbits that seemed clear and relevant. There's another post in this section of the forum that points out how many of the stickied thread links are broken, and that's really frustrated me too, which is why I'm seeking advice in this manner.

I've found a few good youtube resources, such as basic build guides. This one stuck out to me as the most cheap and viable option. My aim is to just construct a basic, usable forge that heats reasonably well so I can start making bits of metal glow and bashing them with a cross pein.

SS Trash Can Forge **WARNING** There is music, and it's super annoying, so I apologize for that in advance.

-Ok, so, his burner is really close to the front opening, I would plan on placing it more towards the center based on advice I have seen here on this forum, also angling it slightly offset from center. 

-Now, that being said, this guy mixes his own refractory and I haven't found enough info on his mix to know whether it will hold up or not under 1800+ Farenheit conditions, so I figure I'll use Kao wool, which from what I gather will be much more stable if I coat it with ITC-100 (PLEEEEEAAAASE correct me if I am wrong, any and all feedback and advice is greatly welcomed).

-For the burner, I'm just planning to use a Bernzomatic TS8000, MAPP gas torch, but I'd be willing to go propane if anyone has a better suggestion. Given my limited experience working with gas and pipe fittings, I'd rather not make my own if I don't have to, unless it ends up being fairly simple and affordable. Again, advice welcome on that.

-Another question I have, especially in relation to the linked video, is whether or not to have the forge be open end-to-end, partially close off the rear opening, or fully close it off. I don't plan on making any swords, obviously, so I'm not sure I'll need that much length, but I'm also wondering how useful it would be just for any longer piece of metal. In addition, the trash can used has roughly twice the internal capacity of the coffee can approach, and if you think that's too much volume for a newb just starting out on basics, let me know.

I'm certainly excited to hear back from any and all comers, and I'd love to get this started sooner, rather than later. I feel I've waited long enough to chase some of my smaller, more accessible dreams, and being able to push metal around is definitely within reach now. 

Thanks, gents.

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2015 by Elvirth

[Elvirth]

Small addition here. Been doing some reading and apparently Bernzomatic torches have a certain likelihood of exploding, so I think I will try and stick to propane, provided I can find a suitable torch head. I would rather avoid building one, as I have very limited tools at my disposal and no working knowledge about fuel/air ratios and orifice sizes and whatnot.

[DSW]

You can buy ready made forge burners from a number of places if you don't want to build your own. They won't be inexpensive though in comparison with making your own. There are also "bigger" professional air/propane rigs made by Turbo Torch, Goss etc that plumbers use to solder large copper pipes. My local welding supply sells the import knock offs for about $130-150 from what I remember. That would be an option for a smaller size forge.

Another option is to simply buy a ready made gas forge. You might look at Majestic Forges. They are relatively inexpensive. I doubt I could buy a burner, propane reg, Kaowool, ITC and so on, plus build the shell for much less than they sell their small forge. the forges aren't the most robust, but they will get you started quickly and at a reasonable price.

[Elvirth]

You can buy ready made forge burners from a number of places if you don't want to build your own. They won't be inexpensive though in comparison with making your own. There are also "bigger" professional air/propane rigs made by Turbo Torch, Goss etc that plumbers use to solder large copper pipes. My local welding supply sells the import knock offs for about $130-150 from what I remember. That would be an option for a smaller size forge.

Another option is to simply buy a ready made gas forge. You might look at Majestic Forges. They are relatively inexpensive. I doubt I could buy a burner, propane reg, Kaowool, ITC and so on, plus build the shell for much less than they sell their small forge. the forges aren't the most robust, but they will get you started quickly and at a reasonable price.

Cheapest one on the Majestic website is 275 before shipping. Not sure that's really any more affordable for what I'm trying to do. The ready-made burners don't look so great either; I also can't really get a good indication of how big they are, and I'm not sure I'll need something incredibly big for the design I'm attempting to achieve. Since my original post I've been scouring the internet for cost saving options, found a fairly simple venturi burner that I might actually be able to make with some help from a friend. It's a simplification of a Reil burner called an Oliver-upwind (silly name, I know). That being said I do have the aforementioned friend who might be willing to split some costs with me, and who also has more tools, so I guess we'll see. The data I need the most to solidify plans in my head is mainly to do with the refractory materials, how to set up the kaowool and various compounds for the most efficient use of heat.

[jacob's hammer]

You could do t-burner,regulator and firebrick for around $50

also, start collecting tools for all imaginable hobbies. someday you will be glad you did.

good luck.

[Elvirth]

You could do t-burner,regulator and firebrick for around $50

also, start collecting tools for all imaginable hobbies. someday you will be glad you did.

good luck.

Ok, so I've been searching and searching for a build guide for the T burner on here, on google, and I've come up with nothing except a very vague sketch and a few blurry pictures. Is there an actual thread buried on here somewhere for that, or a webpage that is still actually up? 

For the firebrick, I'm assuming that's for covering the front of the forge, not for use on the inside, correct?

[jacob's hammer]

this is mine.

Edited August 27, 2015 by jacob's hammer

[Elvirth]

The reason I'm focusing on using a can or other cylindrical piece of steel is because I live in a duplex and have a very small space out back where I can set up a small basic forge to learn on. Thus I have to have something portable-ish so I can cart it in and out of my basement when I'm not using it to protect it from the elements and so forth. I just feel like moving fire bricks that much would probably do more harm than good.

[JHCC]

Others here are much more qualified than me to discuss gas forges, but regarding an opening in the back, you'll need this if you ever plan on putting a twist in the middle of anything over a foot long.

[cranky]

Whats with this forbidden crap?

Elvirth Contact me please for some reason it says I am forbidden to post

 

Edited August 27, 2015 by cranky

[Buzzkill]

I haven't used that particular homebrew refractory mix, but from my experience I would recommend spending the money to buy a few square feet of ceramic fiber blanket of the appropriate rating.  The forge I built is a little larger than the one in the video, but it is very heavy.  I originally built it for burning waste oil, but it seemed like I was spending more time keeping the temperature consistent than I did forging, so I switched to propane.  The forge does work ok - I can have it running for about an hour before the outer skin is too warm to comfortably rest my hand on it - but once it's heated up it takes literally hours to cool down enough to handle. 

From what you're describing you'll want something portable, lightweight, and fairly quick to heat up and cool down.  For those reasons I'd strongly suggest going with as small of a forge as you can get by with and don't skimp on the quality of the insulating liner.  That will keep all of those factors I just mentioned in a reasonable window and significantly decrease the cost of the lining and fuel used.  Like a lot of other people, I wanted to go bigger than I needed at first.  Resist that urge.  A small, well built forge will do more than you think, and you can (and almost certainly will) build another forge if you are addicted to banging on hot metal.  If you go small at first you'll only need a few square feet of kaowool or comparable blanket and the cost won't be much more than the home brew refractory shown in the video. The experience you gain from building the small forge will serve you well in your next build and keep you from making a lot of expensive decisions. 

In either case you'll need a burner, hose, and regulator.  Frosty's T burner is the least expensive decent option I have seen and I know he's in the process of tweaking some of the design features, so it might be cheaper or better soon.

Good luck with whichever route you decide to travel.

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Elvirth, glad to have you. The SS can forge is a really overthought build buy someone who doesn't really know what's needed or how it works. Perlite is toast at 2,000f and it's such a good insulator the flame contact surfaces are going to exceed that easily. Also if you're planning on learning to forge weld the sodium silicate is just going to dissolve as soon as hot flux touches it.

I about have a "blueprint" put together and edited down to reasonable size but can't say just when I'll be posting a copy.

Forget the Oliver Upwind, it's just another version by someone who couldn't get one to work by following plans so he tinkered till he had some - thing that . . . worked. You see this sort of thing all over the net, guys trying to figure things out and when they get something to work they're SURE they've hit on the "secret" and share.

There's a lot of winnowing the wheat from the chaff online.

If you just want to start forging a little a "bean can" forge works a treat. A family size porkNbeans can enough Kaowool to roll a single layer and have it stay by it's own and a Bernzomatic burner or Mapp burner and you're good to go.

Where did you hear Bernzomatics have a tendency to blow up? Any flammable gas CAN be dangerous but if Bernzomatic had a tendency to explode they wouldn't have been around as long as they have. If you're doing this outdoors you're golden. Of course do NOT put the propane/mapp tank too close to the flame!

A bernzomatic is also just right for making a 2 brick forge. Two light fire bricks with a hole about 2" diameter splitting the adjoining faces with another coming in from the side just a LITTLE larger than the torch tip. Place the torch tip just a small fraction of an inch in the burner port and you have a forge.

I had a friend a few years ago who was a bladesmith and used a 2 brick Bernzomatic forge to make knives and he did nice pattern welded billets in it. He lived on the 8th. floor in a retirement condo in Fla. Worked on his balcony and kept his entire knife shop in a cardboard beer case in the closet.

Teenylittlemetalguy has a really nice 2 brick forge running a 1/2" T burner that he has to keep turned way down or it melts steel in the fire if you're not right on top of it.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Elvirth]

I had a bit of a thought earlier. SInce I'm trying to keep costs down by using readily available materials like cans, I think I could get a pot from the local thrift shop and just cut out a little window in the bottom, then pack the whole thing with kaowool. I'm hoping to shoot for a 4" diameter in the middle, possibly a tiny bit smaller, maybe flatten out the bottom of it a bit too. The added volume of a pot would allow me to really insulate the living crap out of the available space and still end up with a fairly small interior volume.

[Mikey98118]

Please, just go to the Larry Zoeller Forge website and look up coffee-can forges there. Add a simple to build Frosty "T" burner in it, and get forging without all the false starts. And, before you ask, the wide open front is supposed to be muffled with a brick "wall" set a short distance away from the opening's edge. By using brick you can vary the size of slot that parts are fed through.

[Frosty]

I had a bunch of papers from manufacturers who make various induction devices of which our burners are a type. It took me probably 2 years to get one working fairly well and I have machine tools and schooling in the use.

You're going to waste time and money trying to guess till you get lucky. Pick a set of directions, follow them and start smithing.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

One othher specific: You want to buy a 3 pound coffee can that has a peel off plastic seal on its top side, beause, under that plastic seal is a 1/2" wide rim, which will stiffen up the can quite a bit.