SReynolds Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 working another piece of scrap steel, unidentified, it was moving nicely until I took another heat (about the fourth heat to orange) and it broke off....under the blow of the hammer at orange heat, and struck me in the face. I look like I went a round with a boxer.I am done with scrap. My second accident in one month with crap er, I mean, scrap. Obviously not mild steel or high carbon steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 so what did the tests you did before you started using it tell you?spark test?hardness test?you did do some tests on it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SReynolds Posted August 24, 2015 Author Share Posted August 24, 2015 No. Simply began to forge it. It worked out for about three/four heats, then it split-off like a shot.One fellow was trying to describe the spark test to me (in person) and I see no difference when I am grinding carbon steel (like a snow plow blade and a piece of known 1018. Looks the same to me. Supposed to have sparks multiply as they fan out from the grinder disk or wheel when grinding high carbon.. Low carbon will not multiply the amount of sparks.Not to rain on any metallurgist's parade here; they ALL multiply the sparks as they fan out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 (edited) A snow plow blade (mold board) is low carbon steel. The cutting edge bolted to the front bottom edge is abrasion resistant and not so high carbon as it contains tungsten granules. The edge or knife is sacrificial to protect the mold board but still has to be flexible.Estimating carbon content with a spark test is NOT about absolutes, it's about comparing low C to high C by eye. Yes, all steel will give sparks that split but that's like saying all words are made up. It's such a generality as to be misleading. What counts is the spark's color, how much and how far from the stone it sparks. If the sparks are orange and every third one splits it's PROBABLY low C. though it might be a high abrasion resistant alloy like Vascowear or gray cast iron. Neither make bright sparkler cuttings.Generally the color of a spark is determined by it's heat and the higher the carbon the more energy it takes to gouge a piece off so the hotter it is. If it's hot enough the carbon burns making sparklers, Heck if it's REALLY hot the steel itself will burn with a hissing sound.Spark testing isn't something you read about ad know how to do, it's a skill set that takes knowledge and practice. Make up some test coupons from known steels and compare them on the grinder, use different grinders as that effects things too. Also compare different heat treats.Frosty The Lucky. Edited August 24, 2015 by Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SReynolds Posted August 24, 2015 Author Share Posted August 24, 2015 It is high carbon compared to 1018 and A36 which I have on hand. But I don't know how much carbon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 It is high carbon compared to 1018 and A36 which I have on hand. But I don't know how much carbon.Are you grinding the mold board or cutting edge? And how do you know what the carbon content is? I spent more than a decade working with snow plows, graders, loader buckets, etc. If you said Dozer blade you'd be into the high end of low carbon steels but snow plow? Not the plow blade.Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Usually the method that seems to give the best result is to build a sample library of know steels and then compare them with the unknown steel 1:1; so things like file, coil spring, 4340, D2, 440C, S7, H13, 1020, usw. With time you can get a intuitive feel for possibilities though wrought iron, cast iron and some of the HSS can be tricky spark testing but are clearly different in the forge! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neg Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 A knife I was working on once slipped out of my tongs at a bright red and hit me right in the cheek. I had a perfect knife shape on the side of my face for about a month. Pretty lucky that it went away completely without scarring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothBore Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Some folks can "think on their feet", and readily adapt to variables, ... and others do better in a more "structured" environment.As long as you know who you are, ... it's all good. As an example .....I've played the Guitar for about 45 years, ... and I still amuse myself doing so.But I'm a Awful guitarist.Big square hands and short, thick fingers, ... are NOT the proper tools for the job. No matter how much I study and learn about various Guitar "techniques", ... I still suck.I came to terms with that decades ago, ... but don't let it stop me from enjoying myself.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Some folks can "think on their feet", and readily adapt to variables, ... and others do better in a more "structured" environment.As long as you know who you are, ... it's all good. As an example .....I've played the Guitar for about 45 years, ... and I still amuse myself doing so.But I'm a Awful guitarist.Big square hands and short, thick fingers, ... are NOT the proper tools for the job. No matter how much I study and learn about various Guitar "techniques", ... I still suck.I came to terms with that decades ago, ... but don't let it stop me from enjoying myself..I can't imagine anyone putting in the time and effort to learn to play well unless they were doing it for themselves. It takes the kind of devotion only love can inspire. I understand what you mean by "suck at it," doesn't mean you haven't mastered the art. As much as I love blue grass I never learned to play anything because I wasn't willing to invest the time.Being able to adapt on the fly varies with subject as well as person I can adjust to some things without thinking but have to stop and regroup for others. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Neg I don't know, "Neg the Knife" would make a neat moniker... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SReynolds Posted August 25, 2015 Author Share Posted August 25, 2015 Snow plow blade. As in the cutting edge. Not the mold board. It is high carbon. I can heat to orange and quench in water. It breaks apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankySmith Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 I'm not sure I'd know how to function without scrap steel - I have/use a lot of it. But yes, it's a coin toss, you don't know exactly what you have in your hand, heck it could be radioactive for all I know. I've had a couple pieces fall apart on me, though thankfully not to the face (yet) - lay it down and move on. The thought of not ever visiting a scrap yard again? Shudder..... banish the thought! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SReynolds Posted August 25, 2015 Author Share Posted August 25, 2015 I guess I am the lazy smith. I buy new. If I need nails I use new round or square stock 1/16th inch larger than the finished nail. I know some have to render-down a RR spike to obtain stock. I won't do that. I have stock here on hand.Folks bring me scrap thinking I will take it use it. The reality is it sets and collects dust. I think a piece will work for me( read that as minimal amount of hammering) but I have been burned twice now. Not literally burned , mind you.I have a 5 gallon bucket of RR spikes from this fellow. I had no clue what to use it for and recently found out they produce a beautiful set of tongs. (two spikes per set) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 I'm a lazy smith too and so I use scrap as usually I can find a piece with a LOT of the work already done for me. Also the distance to the scrapyard is about 6 miles from my shop. Distance to a proper steel dealer is about 50 miles from my shop. Production items are often easier with standard stock; but one offs for me often profit from scrap and sometimes they overlap---like when I bought 200 pieces of 22" 1/2" sq as scrap when I was buying 14 20' sticks of it too. The scrap even came with a bevel on one end. Shoot I could make a profit making tentstakes from that if I didn't die of boredom. (it was $10 for the 200 pieces) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) Cutting edge is often high carbon but but sometimes it's a more exotic or high alloy.It's the tungsten carbide granules in the steel that gives it abrasion resistance, making a steel that can take the punishment is usually a proprietary thing. That makes it really iffy to forge, depending on the maker's recipe. I've gotten some pretty surprising results trying to work the stuff. I have some edge on the pile and it can stay there till I need an upsetting plate or something. Working it is too iffy for my blood.If you know who makes the plow you can find out what the edge steel is so you don't have to do as much guessing.Frosty The Lucky. Edited August 25, 2015 by Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SReynolds Posted August 25, 2015 Author Share Posted August 25, 2015 John Deere...and I may try that, thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yahoo2 Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 It is likely that it is a boron steel, it cracks like that a lot, most modern ground engaging tools that are a "throw away bolt on item" are made with boron in them. If somebody has a technique for working with boron steel I would like to know what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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