brand names?

[RDSBandit]

I went to the local flea market yesterday, where I found quite a few hammers. I didn't get any, but I just wanted to know what was out there. I did pick up 2 punches and a little chisel however. All that to ask, when yall are out hunting up tools, what brand names do you look for? And which do you try to avoid?

I'm just wondering because I have heard of some hammers being softer than others, or having a steel face welded onto an inferior steel. I'm just wanting to to try and avoid buying useless or troublesome tools.

I'm also asking about brand names of punches, chisels, hammers, just any tools you usually pickup.

Edited April 5, 2015 by RDSBandit
Because.....Auto "correct".... :-(

[Chadwicks bog]

I would take a chance on a hammer with a welded steel face, if it looks like it was done with skill. Anytime you take advantage of the strengths of two materials you have the end product quality in mind. It's a lot of work if you are making junk tools, but worth it if your end goal is quality.

[arftist]

There are a lot more good names than bad names. Many very good hammers have no name.

You want a large selection of ball peins , a few sizes of cross peins, a straight pein or two, a few drill hammers, some sheetmetal hammers, asorted sledge hammers and any oddball stuff you can find. 

Loose hammer heads are also a good score if cheap since they can be re-formed into whatever you want. 

[GottMitUns]

I don't think I have ever looked at the brand of a used hammer, just its condition verses price.If its cheap enough for your budget pick it up, you will find a use for it sooner or later.

 

russell

[Charles R. Stevens]

Most old hammers are harder than newer hammers, ones that are mushroomed are either abused newer hammers  or stone mason's hammers ( stone chisels are driven by soft faced hammers) if the edges are chiped then you know it's a hard hammer, if you can dress it out great, if not its a good candidate for reforging.

as to hammers having steel faces welded to soft baddies, not to long ago ( 100 years ago is not long ago in a graft that goes back a few thousand) wrought iron hammers wih steel forge welded on we're the standard, and as steel that has been protected by an old barn doesn't deteriorate 100 year old tools are kind of a smiths stock in trade. 

[Frosty]

I'm kind of curious now, how do you know a hammer has a welded steel face Chad and how do you determine if the welds are well done with skill?

I can spot hammers with welded faces but I've been looking at the thing for a few decades. Still don't know how to tell the weld quality by looking though.

I tend to buy most any smooth faced hammer if it isn't beaten to death. With a little practice you can tell how hard steel is by running a new sharp single cut file across it and listening to it speak. Even skating files will sound different depending on how much harder than RC60 they are.

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

I generally make the cut at "china, india, pakistan" not that you can't find some good ones from there but I don't have to worry about differentiating good vs bad.  I'm at the stage were I'm looking for old handmade hammers + straight peens and "oddballs"  I probably need to make a list of all the different brands I have and use probably 30+ if in include the English, Swedish, German, Spanish, French, etc; ones

[Chadwicks bog]

I do not own such a hammer, I have heard a few smiths say they are good, one said his favorite hammer was constructed as such. 

I guess i should have have said if the hammer looks to be made with some skill, AKA does not look as though a beginner made it. If the overall craftsmanship of a hammer with welded faces was sloppy I would question the skill with witch it was made.

Would you disagree frosty, maybe I have been mislead? 

The he one I saw was wrought iron with steel faces, so it was quite easy to see the material difference.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Chadwicks bog

[Frosty]

I was asking if you had specific cues to judge if a welded face hammer was made well or not.

I don't know what you mean by misled either. A well made anything is going to be better than a poorly made one. Is there a question about that, a need to say so? While I've never taken a close look at a wrought hammer with a hc steel face I have seen the two forge welded and if the join is obvious it wasn't a very good weld. That's not if it's heavily weathered of course, WI and steel rust differently.

I don't want to discourage anyone from being helpful, I'm just wondering about your expertise level. Some of the things you're saying are pretty vague, like you're grasping. None of us were born knowing this stuff, we all had to learn it. After messing with hot steel and hammers off and on for better than 50 years I'm more ignorant now than when I started.

Keep at it brother, we're all on the slope and it's a GRAND ride.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Chadwicks bog]

I'm just curious if there is anything I said that you disagree with? Anything I may have said that was untrue?

if there is I would welcome the chance to have my reality corrected, never too proud to have learned something that was false and be willing to learn from another point of view.

i think I use fewer words that can be viewed as vague, but all needed info is present. I'm just not a long winded man.

[ThomasPowers]

I have a couple of steeled face hammers and the patination is quite distinct between the two metals.

[Chadwicks bog]

So that I can take this opportunity to learn something I will be less vague, allowing you to fully hear what I was saying, and lead me away from any misdirection that I was given.

a hard material is always more brittle in relation to a softer material, just by nature of hardness and relativity, there are a few exceptions to this rule of coarse.

repeted impact on a harder material will develop stress fatigue in that material faster and more acutely that in relationship to a softer one. 

However a softer material while less susceptible to stress fatigue is more susceptible to force malformation than a given harder material.

In the case of a hammer's needs, the work forces being what they are.....we apply direct forces to generally two areas of the tool, these areas tend to be larger and more massive (having mass) than other areas not directly under force. Again eceptions to a rule may apply.

indirect forces are applied throughout the tool and these areas tend to be less massive I.E. The eye, and in the case of carpenters hammers the claw.

given enough time and force impact an eye of harder more brittle material will fail before an eye of softer less brittle material.

given enough time and force impact a face of softer less brittle material will malform before a face of harder more brittle material.

If one wishes to take advantage of both of these properties within one tool it stands to reason that a faces of harder material can be applied to the body of softer material, combining the strengths of both materials while avoiding the weaknesses inherently in both as well. Doing such greatly reduces the effects of force applied to all areas in question and greatly increases the usefull life of a hammer.

now on to why a hammer constructed as such would be advantageous to the user......

A harder material has strength in its ability to not malform under force impact, rebounding back very quickly to its original shape

A softer material does not and tends to " give" apon impact deforming much more before rebounding back into shape

During the time between impact and rebound force is being transferred into what we hope is hot iron/steel 

a harder material will apply force for a shorter time in relationship to to a softer material

A softer material will will apply force over a longer period than its harder counterpart, however the soft material will not use this energy as efficiently due to force being used by the larger amount of deformation prior to rebound

So hard = fast efficient........soft =slow less efficient    This is in regards to use of force in the working time between impact and rebound and again is just a relitivity between the two.

This being said it stands to reason that a hammer constructed as discussed earier would have the advantage of the face being hard, efficiently delivering the force to the work while the softer body of the tool would slightly lengthen the time between impact and rebound. As such it would apply more force over a longer period greatly effecting the reaction of the receiver of the impact...I.E. Move more metal.

In the end one would deduce that said hammer would, all other things equal, last longer under forces applied, and also deliver force to the work more efficiently and cause a favorable outcome per impact.

 

 

 

 

[RDSBandit]

I generally make the cut at "china, india, pakistan" not that you can't find some good ones from there but I don't have to worry about differentiating good vs bad.  I'm at the stage were I'm looking for old handmade hammers + straight peens and "oddballs"  I probably need to make a list of all the different brands I have and use probably 30+ if in include the English, Swedish, German, Spanish, French, etc; ones

This is kind of what I was looking for....

Avoid hammers made in China, India, and Pakistan. Assumeing you can find a country of origin somewhere on the hammer.

Would any of y'all ever buy a brand new Snap-on ball pein? (Just a high end name I threw out there, for an example)

What are the characteristics y'all look for in a hammer before purchasing it, like at a garage sale, or flea market? 

Also, if you make that hammer list anytime in the near future, would you mind posting it to hear, and maybe specify your most used and loved hammers? (Assumeing they are one and the same)

Edited April 6, 2015 by RDSBandit

[Jacob Nothstine]

I like Heller and older Plumb brand hammers. 

[ThomasPowers]

Of course I'd buy a new snap-on hammer---if it cost US$1 or less.  I'm not a big fan of their shape though.

I'd throw in the ATHA hammers to the above list.

 

I also keep my eye out for tools marked Cast Steel as they are *oldies*!

Edited April 6, 2015 by ThomasPowers

[Frosty]

Agreed Thomas, patination or corrosion will show the difference between mild and HC or alloy steels forge welded together as seen in pattern welded blades.

Bandit: Sorry I just might have been in a short mood when I replied. Nothing you said was untrue, I didn't call you on B.S..  I apologize if I came across harsh, I'm trying to work on that.

Impact physics is a WIDE topic I only have a narrow lay handle on at best. However it's based on practical experience from getting the most I can from my hammers: on the anvil, splitting wood or assessing material failures. That and talking to folk who do know.

Where to start, hmmmm, tossing a coin. (it just works better than solo rock paper scissor and I don't know the I ching.) Metal fatigue is as good a departure point as any and on topic I guess. Metal fatigues when it's pushed past it's elastic limit or yield strength. You can flex steel within it's elastic limit till the sun goes out without fatiguing it. Springs are a case in point, they take millions of cycles under your car, especially on Alaskan or gravel roads and do so without fatiguing. Unless they get pushed to the stops or overloaded, say putting a ton in your half ton pickup and driving down the gravel road.

Basically, just because a hammer is homogenous steel doesn't mean will fatigue. Bouncing it on another piece of high carbon or high alloy hard steel on the other hand certainly can. HOT iron/steel on the anvil is more than enough and cold mild steel is adequate cushion to prevent fatigue occurring in even the hardest hammer or anvil face.

 A welded high carbon steel face on a wrought body hammer is a wear surface. The steel face resists: pits, dings, cuts, etc. and distributes the impact energy over a wider area making the hammer body more resistant to deformation. However even hardened high carbon steel can deform/flex, and being welded to a malleable substrate it tends to want to remain deformed. Repeated impacts relieves stress if not greater than it's elastic limit. This is how pinging and relieving a weld works, lots of little impacts allows stresses to relax.

You see this this kind of deformation in older steel faced wrought body anvils as sway or swales. It's technically wear but it's not steel worn OFF the plate, it's been literally driven into the body. That statement isn't universally true, some faces have steel worn off but from what I've looked at most appear to have been deformed under impact rather than abraded.

Nothing you've said is untrue, I don't know how applicable it is. Nor do I know how what I think I know applies either. I'm hoping someone here in IFI-land does know impact physics and metal will chime in with some hard data and has mercy on me with the math. Understanding this stuff is a high paying profession and I'd sure like to hear from a pro on the subject.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[RDSBandit]

Bandit: Sorry I just might have been in a short mood when I replied. Nothing you said was untrue, I didn't call you on B.S..  I apologize if I came across harsh, I'm trying to work on that.

Actually Frosty, I wasn't offended until just now. This whole time I thought you had been talking to someone else.

[Frosty]

Actually Frosty, I wasn't offended until just now. This whole time I thought you had been talking to someone else.

​

Frosty The Lucky.

[GottMitUns]

I have bought a new Snap-on ball peen!! I think it weighs 2 oz. for driving in very small and short pins and roll pins.  I needed one and you don't find that size in pawn shops to often

when I'm buying used stuff I look at the following most of the time. (fortunately or unfortunately I never seem to get them in the same order).

Is the quality good enough to do what I want to do with it?

Do I need it?

Do I WANT it?

Can I afford it?

 

Russell

[Chadwicks bog]

I believe he was talking to me, and if anything my long post can be called BS on not because it is untrue, but because it's hopelessly ridiculous, that is exactly what I was trying to point out, to jump on a beginner because he is one and not for having bad attitude or spreading falsehoods, is just bullying. If I had said welded face hammers will come apart stay away! I would expect it! 

Remember because a beginner is new to smithing does not mean that he is avoid of knowledge altogether, I have been a tradesman for 25 yrs, and live my life as a student of the trades, and why they work, and how to do better work. Smithing is very new to me yes, but I learned to weld at 7 and began building with wood at 5-6. 

I want nothing more than to be knocked down if I misspeak that is how we learn, but be advised if I do not know I will not say anything.......years of getting knocked down after misspeaking will teach you to keep your mouth shut rather than give false advice.

but alas I am an Irishman, and we don't take well to injustice, and if we know we are right or just, we fight for it!  Knowing that my original advise was just, you started at a disadvantage. 

So my amount of experience has no bearing on the usefullness of a welded face hammer, because the welded face hammer was a good one before I was born........

oh oh and stress fatigue does affect hammers it would just take thousands of years to fail in the way I described!!!

[ThomasPowers]

Speaking historically I'd say you were off as hammers that are thousands of years old generally fail from the rock chipping or failing along a plane of weakness.  Now my oldest hammer is probably early 1800's and shows no signs of failure---yet and yes it is a steeled wrought iron body hammer I dug out from the mud under a scrap pile in England one visit there. (I always try to pick up something I can use when on international trips save for my day job where I cross the border every work day).

[Chadwicks bog]

Oh and ultimately no hard feelings and I would still be willing to call you my freind one day!

[Chadwicks bog]

Mr. Powers, I never said the hammer WOULD fail there! Just that it was more likely to than a different material......

 

good try though! Hahahahaha

Edited April 6, 2015 by Chadwicks bog
to laugh showing fun intent

[SJS]

I have hammers "fail" all the time... I shatter the edges on hard hammers, and put nasty dings in the face of softer hammers. I have only managed to completely destroy the eye on a copper hammer, that I remember... 

My criteria for buying hammers at flea markets, gargage sales and such is do i need it, can I make it into something cool, is it cheap enough? Or valuable enough I don't care how much it cost... I buy 2$> hammer heads to reforge. A forging hammer I really need to like the feel and the shape. I'm not as fugal as Thomas but I am on the cheap side of things most of the time;-)

[ThomasPowers]

People keep telling me they can't find cheap hammers and I'm on my 3rd bucket of ballpeens for $1 and under + all the ones students have used. (1st traded to Sandpile, 2nd sold at Quad-State---as a public service, 3rd filling...)