thelittleguy Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 What type of crucible do you use while smelting iron or steel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Do you mean smelting which is making iron/steel from ore; or do you mean melting which is melting iron or steel for casting or alloying? Smelting I don't use a crucible but a Scandinavian short stack bloomery; others use the tatara furnace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittleguy Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 Do you mean smelting which is making iron/steel from ore; or do you mean melting which is melting iron or steel for casting or alloying? Smelting I don't use a crucible but a Scandinavian short stack bloomery; others use the tatara furnace. Oh ya sorry I'm new to all this black smithing terms i just started learning about it the other day and I meant melting I just wasn't sure because all the crucibles that I have looked at will melt if I try to melt down steel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Oh ya sorry I'm new to all this black smithing terms i just started learning about it the other day and I meant melting I just wasn't sure because all the crucibles that I have looked at will melt if I try to melt down steel Hi, what you want to research is not crucibles (though that method is possible) but rather cupola furnaces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittleguy Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 Hi, what you want to research is not crucibles (though that method is possible) but rather cupola furnaces. Thanks for the suggestion I will look into making my own seeing if there are any books or ways of making them right now but I think it might be to complicated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Cupolas are more for doing cast iron and are great for that usage. For melting steel you will need to get a good steel melting temp rated crucible and also work with the possible uptake if carbon from the crucible and/or erosion of the crucible due to the flux used.Let me say that if you are at the stage you don't know the difference between melting/foundry work and smelting you are nowhere near the level for melting and pouring steel. It's one of the most dangerous processes out there!!!!So please tell us what you are trying to do and perhaps we can suggest a plan to get there from where you are at. For example we have several people on this board who do melt steel for doing wootz and others that work with cast iron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittleguy Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 Cupolas are more for doing cast iron and are great for that usage. For melting steel you will need to get a good steel melting temp rated crucible and also work with the possible uptake if carbon from the crucible and/or erosion of the crucible due to the flux used.Let me say that if you are at the stage you don't know the difference between melting/foundry work and smelting you are nowhere near the level for melting and pouring steel. It's one of the most dangerous processes out there!!!!So please tell us what you are trying to do and perhaps we can suggest a plan to get there from where you are at. For example we have several people on this board who do melt steel for doing wootz and others that work with cast iron. Well i wanted to work with aluminum but then I found out it was toxic so I thought that steel and iron was the next metal to work with don't ask why so if you could tell me what type of metal would be best for just casting and molding then I would be more then glad to work with that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 most metals are toxic and you will need a lot of safety gear before you start. I would consider pewter to be something you could start with. molten aluminium at a few hundred degrees is 10 times more likely to cause you serious injury than working steel at 1500 degrees centigrade, any molten metal is dangerous, they make poisonous fumes, they can explode out of a crucible if something contains a drop of water ( a friend has bad scars over a lot of his face and very nearly lost an eye due to molten aluminium ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 its good you are getting interested, but I suggest that at 14 you are to young to buy most the the equipment needed to do this. due the dangers, please keep reading and you can start casting aluminum and bronze failly soon. I have no idea where Iron dwarf got the idea Aluminum is 10 times more dangerous to work than steel, I would like him to explain that one, it must have missed something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittleguy Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 most metals are toxic and you will need a lot of safety gear before you start. I would consider pewter to be something you could start with. molten aluminium at a few hundred degrees is 10 times more likely to cause you serious injury than working steel at 1500 degrees centigrade, any molten metal is dangerous, they make poisonous fumes, they can explode out of a crucible if something contains a drop of water ( a friend has bad scars over a lot of his face and very nearly lost an eye due to molten aluminium ) Thanks I think that I'll start here and work my way up as I get more experienced with melting down and casting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittleguy Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 its good you are getting interested, but I suggest that at 14 you are to young to buy most the the equipment needed to do this. due the dangers, please keep reading and you can start casting fairing aluminum and bronze failly soon. I have no idea where Iron dwarf got the idea Aluminum is 10 times more damgerous to work than steel, I would like him to explain that one, i must have missed something. Ya I didn't really get what he was saying but I think ill start with pewter and I was going to make my own foundry out of some supplies and I was going to buy anything I couldn't make so it should be good by spring and I will soon be melting and casting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Simple *molten* metal is far more dangerous than hotter but *solid* metal.You drop a hot bar of steel on the ground it lays there until you pick it up with tongs. You drop molten metal on the ground it may cause a steam explosion and blow right back at you killing you or causing massive and painful injuries.As for getting started may I commend to your attention backyardmetalcasting.com; I'd get involved with the forum there and try to find a local caster that will get you started. I took a brass metal casting class at a local community college arts program that jump started my casting.Note if you are under legal adult age it may be harder to find someone willing to take the risk and personally I would not suggest going with anyone who didn't demand a parent present---I do for teaching smithing to the younger ones. (Funny casting Al was part of our middle school metals class back in my day...but even then we rammed the mold and the Teacher did the pouring!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittleguy Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 Simple *molten* metal is far more dangerous than hotter but *solid* metal.You drop a hot bar of steel on the ground it lays there until you pick it up with tongs. You drop molten metal on the ground it may cause a steam explosion and blow right back at you killing you or causing massive and painful injuries.As for getting started may I commend to your attention backyardmetalcasting.com; I'd get involved with the forum there and try to find a local caster that will get you started. I took a brass metal casting class at a local community college arts program that jump started my casting.Note if you are under legal adult age it may be harder to find someone willing to take the risk and personally I would not suggest going with anyone who didn't demand a parent present---I do for teaching smithing to the younger ones. (Funny casting Al was part of our middle school metals class back in my day...but event then we rammed the mold and the Teacher did the pouring!) Wow you're lucky to have a middle school who had a metals class, the most dangerous class my school has is probably scitech were there is a possibility of shocking yourself and also I will look into that forum thank you. Also that makes a lot more sense with the molten metal and the hot bar danger thing I will definitely see if there is anyone around here that will teach me with my dad present so that maybe he can learn a thing or to aswell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 a piece of steel up to yellow heat can cause injuries a crucible holding at least 10 pounds of molten aluminium suddenly being emptied like a geyser and covering an area 20 feet in diameter caused very serious injuries to a friend who was standing next to the crucible at the time, he was not wearing a full mask but just safety goggles and molten metal got inside his goggles. he had just added more scrap to the crucible and one piece must have contained water Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittleguy Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 a piece of steel up to yellow heat can cause injuries a crucible holding at least 10 pounds of molten aluminium suddenly being emptied like a geyser and covering an area 20 feet in diameter caused very serious injuries to a friend who was standing next to the crucible at the time, he was not wearing a full mask but just safety goggles and molten metal got inside his goggles. he had just added more scrap to the crucible and one piece must have contained water Ya I'll definitely use all safely precautions while melting and casting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 when Thomas was at school dinosaurs roamed the earth and the only elements known were earth, wind, fire and water. since then of course things have got more restrictive due to safety concerns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Special Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Very simply, at your age, best bet is to find someone with a great deal of experience casting and learn from them. I learned on my own to begin with, and a small miracle that I'm not crippled or blind. Working with metal is usually dangerous, but casting especially so due to the possiblity of steam explosions, etc. Make a friend. Buy good PPE and good crucibles. Don't scrimp. Take your time. Have fun. A friend with experience casting is also likely to have experience with other forms of metalworking, such as forging, which is where I live now..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Special Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Darn right they've got more restrictive. Rightfully so. Where are those dinosaurs now? Probably tried playing with aluminum....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittleguy Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 when Thomas was at school dinosaurs roamed the earth and the only elements known were earth, wind, fire and water. since then of course things have got more restrictive due to safety concerns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 boy we were excited when the shamans first started telling us about *metal* the new wonder material...of course some of us were perfectly happy with flint---just like grandpappy used to chip! The ground was much softer back then too; over the years as I've aged I find that the ground has gotten harder as it's not nearly as comfortable to sleep on as when I was young.Iron Dwarf; as a friend of mine liked to say "someday you *will* be in range!" get off my lawn! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittleguy Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 boy we were excited when the shamans first started telling us about *metal* the new wonder material...of course some of us were perfectly happy with flint---just like grandpappy used to chip! The ground was much softer back then too; over the years as I've aged I find that the ground has gotten harder as it's not nearly as comfortable to sleep on as when I was young.Iron Dwarf; as a friend of mine liked to say "someday you *will* be in range!" get off my lawn! Im starting to like this community Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 I am a recently retired Metal shop teacher. We had a foundry in school where we poured Aluminum. 37 years and over 750 pours into petrobond clay. We did aluminum because the fumes where not like what comes off of bronze. And we had a ventilation system and multiple wall fans for the smoke and fumes. We could pour 35 lbs at a time. That is a lot of metal. We usually filled 8 -10 molds at a time, with some to spare(cast into ingots for next time). It took two people to do the pour. I always did the pouring end, with a student I could trust holding the other end of the pouring shank. We NEVER had an accident. The students knew the potential and respected the process. It was great being able to make a pattern, cast it, then machine out a product. It is not inexpensive to do any foundry work. We used full body protection: hardhat with face shield screens, full leather welding jacket, thick gloves, leather aprons, and leggings over the ankle and foot. After all those years, they were dirty, but never needed. But if they were, we had them. You will need a fuel source, and crucibles that can handle the temperature. And to tools to handle the crucible to to the pour. Also needed is the molding clay, molders tools and flasks to pack it into. And your patterns you want to copy. And the machines to finish the castings. Read up on the topic, then try to find out if there is anyone who is doing what you want to do. And be safe. Molten metal is Very dangerous, and any contact with moisture will cause a steam/molten metal explosion. If you are trying to do what is floating around on YouTube with someone casting a "sword" in a bucket of sand, that was done by the lost foam method. Remember, when Styrofoam is instantly burned out with molten aluminum, the gases given off are TOXIC. Be careful. What we are all trying to tell you is to be informed, and do not do anything that will kill you and others, or disfigure you for life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittleguy Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 On 1/20/2015 at 4:43 PM, njanvilman said: I am a recently retired Metal shop teacher. We had a foundry in school where we poured Aluminum. 37 years and over 750 pours into petrobond clay. We did aluminum because the fumes where not like what comes off of bronze. And we had a ventilation system and multiple wall fans for the smoke and fumes .... snipped .... Be careful. What we are all trying to tell you is to be informed, and do not do anything that will kill you and others, or disfigure you for life. Thank you so much for that story I wish that schools were like that now'a'days but now everything is "oh the kids are going to get hurt or oh that's not safe." And it drives me nuts because they don't know us some of us are rather mature for our age and wont do the stupid xxxx that they think that we'll do. Thank you for the styrofoam information because that's actually how I was going to start out but I think that I'll just get myself some molds, clay, clay tools and some flasks. I'm also trying to see if there is a safe teacher around were I live that can teach me around he ropes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 You can learn a lot by starting with plaster. A 50 pound bag of plaster costs only a few bucks and will be enough for lots of castings. When you have a working knowledge of draft, venting and gating you can advance to low melting temp alloys, then higher, etc. That is the usual progression As noted by others, join a casting forum and start collecting books about pattern making, mold making, metal casting and metallurgy. It is a long and rewarding but difficult road. Also, you may want to try to get into either a technical/vocational high school or a general high school. I am of the understanding that there are still a few general high schools in Mass, I had the wonderful benefit of attending one. A general high school in mass has a fully equipped wood and metal shop in addition to the traditional business and college prep classes. Under the mass state school choice laws you can go to any public high school you want, though you will likely need to provide your own transportation. The Voke/Tech schools are hard to get into because they are so popular, but it is worth a try if you are a good student with good grades. http://www.doe.mass.edu/finance/schoolchoice/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittleguy Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 You can learn a lot by starting with plaster. A 50 pound bag of plaster costs only a few bucks and will be enough for lots of castings. When you have a working knowledge of draft, venting and gating you can advance to low melting temp alloys, then higher, etc. That is the usual progression I was actually thinking about going to a career/tech school and to see if they have a metal shop and I think I'll have a good chance of getting into one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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