SBOhio Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Just wanted take a moment to introduce myself and say hello. I'm new to blacksmithing and in my search for my 1st anvil I stumbled on a large 400 lb Hay Buddon. I have done a lot of research and know they are a really respected and prized anvil. The problem is it has almost no rebound with a 1" ball bearing. I would estimate it to be about 20%. The sound with small ball peen is more of a dead thud or low/dead ring also. This anvil is heavily painted including the face. I would quess it was painted more than 20 years ago. Would the paint kill rebound and sound? I have looked at some larger Peter Writes that rang like a church bell. It is sitting on a large commercial looking base. The base is probably 24 x 24" at the bottom, made of steel, and a large hole on all four sides. Would the base soak up the rebound and sound? He has given me permission to strip it before I buy it. From what I've found fire, a loose top plate, or cracks are the primary suspects. Can anyone explain the two different production methods for Hay Buddons? Are these larger anvils just flat sounding? Any thoughts on what to look for would be helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Yes paint on the face will preclude the ball bearing test working. How it is mounted on the base might quiet it down. You won't be able to get a good ring with a heavy layer of paint either as like the ball bearing the face paint will squish rather than the face dealing with the energy. Without stripping the paint you are looking at a pig in a poke! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBOhio Posted April 9, 2014 Author Share Posted April 9, 2014 Yes paint on the face will preclude the ball bearing test working. How it is mounted on the base might quiet it down. You won't be able to get a good ring with a heavy layer of paint either as like the ball bearing the face paint will squish rather than the face dealing with the energy. Without stripping the paint you are looking at a pig in a poke! Have you ever heard of paint stripper being a problem? It looks like old enamel and I think a good stripper would take it off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustyanchor Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Hi SB, welcome to IFI. I am no expert in anything...but If the top of the anvil is covered in paint it could kill the ring and rebound. If the owner is willing to let you clean the face off, clean it to bare metal with a wire wheel and try the rebound again. Also ensure the ball you are using is a hardened one. I have a large soft steel bearing that shaws horrible rebound on anything. Try a bigger ball pein/pien/peen after you strip the paint and see if that gives a better result, does the hammer leave a divot if you hit it pretty hard? The base it sits on can indeed dampen the ring, but shouldn't affect rebound, the paint could affect both though.. While you are cleaning the face, stand in front of the horn and clean the left foot, there should be a S/N there which can give you a date of manufacture. Early HBs had a welded on hardened steel plate, as I recall the rest of the anvil is wrought, after I think 1903?? (Have to look in AIA for the year) HB went to a 2 piece anvil with the top half being tool steel, bottom being steel or possibly wrought, Mine (1918) looks like it has been forged from steel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustyanchor Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Stripper shouldn't be an issue with the anvil, may not be good for your lungs, but paint removal with a wire wheel isn't very friendly either, wear proper PPE for either stripping meth. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBOhio Posted April 9, 2014 Author Share Posted April 9, 2014 Hi SB, welcome to IFI. I am no expert in anything...but If the top of the anvil is covered in paint it could kill the ring and rebound. If the owner is willing to let you clean the face off, clean it to bare metal with a wire wheel and try the rebound again. Also ensure the ball you are using is a hardened one. I have a large soft steel bearing that shaws horrible rebound on anything. Try a bigger ball pein/pien/peen after you strip the paint and see if that gives a better result, does the hammer leave a divot if you hit it pretty hard? The base it sits on can indeed dampen the ring, but shouldn't affect rebound, the paint could affect both though.. While you are cleaning the face, stand in front of the horn and clean the left foot, there should be a S/N there which can give you a date of manufacture. Early HBs had a welded on hardened steel plate, as I recall the rest of the anvil is wrought, after I think 1903?? (Have to look in AIA for the year) HB went to a 2 piece anvil with the top half being tool steel, bottom being steel or possibly wrought, Mine (1918) looks like it has been forged from steel This one looks like it has a plate about an 1" thick forged on top. If it is one of the earlier ones do you know if being wrought would cause it to have a dead ring? I will try to get the top stripped as soon as possible and look for that serial #. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Strip all the paint off. If it is early enough to have a welded plate you need to have a good look at the weld seam all the way around. It is very unlikely that the anvil is dead. Thick paint could cause everything you discuss. Do not hit the anvil hard enough to dent it though. 2 other things; big Hay Budden top plate are a little softer than small ones, and Peter Wright plates are very hard, possibly too hard, they are often missing chunks out of the top plate. The steel stand may or may not be advantageous; if it is fabricated steel it may not be very helpful but a properly designed cast iron stand could enhance the anvil's performance as well as deaden the sound (most consider this a good thing). I would post lots of pictures here before buying, there are some real anvil experts here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Dave Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 I used a 4"grinder with a twisted wire brush to remove old paint from my 312 lb Hay Budden. That worked fast. Wear a good respirator as the paint may have toxic material in it especially if it is old paint. Below the horn should be some numbers which will tell you when it was made and includes the weight. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustyanchor Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 The old anvils were wrought and will ring very well if the top plate weld is intact. If it rings well in some places and sounds dead in others, the plate may be seperating from the base in the dead sounding areas, may be something going on in the anvil body itself. Get the paint off first and see what you find under the paint, try your rebound out with the bearing or a ball pein. If you get decent rebound, the plate is hard enough to work on. Correction to my previous dates: HB went to a 2 piece anvil in 1909 and mine is a 1919 manufacture. Pics are a good thing... Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBOhio Posted April 9, 2014 Author Share Posted April 9, 2014 Is there a way to get close to judging hardness? I believe most files are 60 and from what I've read most of these older anvils are softer. The face and edges are in awful good shape. I couldn't see any separation. I will get the paint off. Thanks for all the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBOhio Posted April 12, 2014 Author Share Posted April 12, 2014 Ok I have some more info on the Hay Buddon. Serial # on the foot appears to be 89851. I can't see anything after the 1. It is pretty ruff after that. After removing the paint on the face the rebound increase incredibly. I would put it at 80-85% rebound! The bad new is what appears to be a weld under the horn. I am not sure if this is a weld or not. Could a Hay Buddon of this age have been cast this ruffly? The lower part of this whole anvil is ruff. The other bad news is what appears as a 4" long vertical weld under the heal. Now I don't know what to do. The rebound is great. The ring on the face is decent and not so good on the sides. This anvil still has 200 lbs of mass above any potential welds. I am new to blacksmithing and don't expect to be going at this with a large sledge anytime soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 Something may have been welded to it at some point, then removed. OR, someone was testing the settings on a welder for a job. Looks good, have fun with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBOhio Posted April 12, 2014 Author Share Posted April 12, 2014 Something may have been welded to it at some point, then removed. OR, someone was testing the settings on a welder for a job. Looks good, have fun with it. I haven't bought it yet. I don't know what to do about these potential welds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 Looking at the pics, nothing. They are not in critical areas, and they do not go all around. I am guesssing that they are just surface, and were not repairs. If it was in my price range I would have no problem buying that Hay-Budden. How much are they asking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustyanchor Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 The anvil looks like a dandy, If it is in your price range, BUY IT NOW. The top plate looks clean, from the pic I don't see big chips taken out of it. Hay BUDDENs were not cast anvils, each was forged using big steam hammers so the lines are not cookie cutter perfect. The bottom of an anvil is for support and weight/mass not a working surface, so how it looks isn't a big deal. the S/N dates it to 1904. If those are welds they are not in the working area of the anvil so not an issue. You have ring and rebound so you know the top plate is still attached and it is still hard. If it was me and the price was reasonable and in my range, I would not hesitate to buy it. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBOhio Posted April 12, 2014 Author Share Posted April 12, 2014 Looking at the pics, nothing. They are not in critical areas, and they do not go all around. I am guesssing that they are just surface, and were not repairs. If it was in my price range I would have no problem buying that Hay-Budden. How much are they asking? $2.50/lb.. $1000. is still a chunk of change and I was worried about them opening up down the road. Your right the vertical weld looks like a test weld. The one under horn is more concerning. Do you think its possible the horn could have been broke off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBOhio Posted April 12, 2014 Author Share Posted April 12, 2014 The anvil looks like a dandy, If it is in your price range, BUY IT NOW. The top plate looks clean, from the pic I don't see big chips taken out of it. Hay BUDDENs were not cast anvils, each was forged using big steam hammers so the lines are not cookie cutter perfect. The bottom of an anvil is for support and weight/mass not a working surface, so how it looks isn't a big deal. the S/N dates it to 1904. If those are welds they are not in the working area of the anvil so not an issue. You have ring and rebound so you know the top plate is still attached and it is still hard. If it was me and the price was reasonable and in my range, I would not hesitate to buy it. Mark I guess my only concern would be if the cracks opened up down the road. What do you think of the base? I thought it was a little hard to get your feet close but it's a beast! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 Is that 400 pounds including the base? Then $1000 is not a deal. If that is a 400 pound H-B *PLUS* a cast base, then it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBOhio Posted April 12, 2014 Author Share Posted April 12, 2014 $1000. is the anvil only. I don't know what he wants for the base. I'll have to ask. Do you think it's to wide at the bottom to work comfortably? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustyanchor Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 I think your "cracks" are probably the original seam between the base and top of the anvil, I could be wrong though. I would buy the anvil in it's present condition without a moments hesitation but price would play a role in that statement. How much does the actual anvil weigh, it should be stamped in the side below the HB trademark. As John points out if the anvil is 400, good deal, anvil and base are 400, not a good deal. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustyanchor Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 $1000. is the anvil only. I don't know what he wants for the base. I'll have to ask. Do you think it's to wide at the bottom to work comfortably? It comes down to can you work comfortably with the base. You can always get a stump to mount it on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 I see nothing structurally wrong with that anvil. Buy an old english one and it might have more than half a dozen forge welds making up the mass *and* a series across the face as the plate was forge welded on in pieces. Buy a later anvil made in the USA and the waist weld might be done with an arc welder! I would tell the seller that you assumed the stand went with the anvil for that price! (And as mentioned throwing in the stand takes it from a meh deal on the anvil to a good deal on anvil and stand) There is an old specialized tool for measuring hardness of things like an anvil faceplate, its called a scleroscope and it works by dropping a hardened steel ball on the object and measuring it's rebound. The ball bearing test (see anvilfire.com for a list of values for various anvils) is just a simplified version of this instrument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBOhio Posted April 12, 2014 Author Share Posted April 12, 2014 It is 411. Everything I've read is that it 411 lbs., not in stone. I appreciate the help and will try to close the deal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 It never hurts to shoot low at first , and see what they say. All of my 6 anvils were in the $1 a pound range, one was only 50¢ a pound (150# Vulcan). The others range from 50# to 306#. The 306# Sodefors was $200 at a machine shop auction. Whatever you do, take ca$h with you. Set a budget that you can afford, and stick to it. And yes, the stand goes with the anvil in this deal. It would be a shame to separate them. Make sure you let them know that you are not a collector, but someone who wants to actually work with it. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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