Boston fire

[DSW]

It's interesting to note that they are saying the fire that killed the two fire fighters in Boston is being blamed on workers next door installing a railing on the roof.

 

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/04/04/officials-reveal-cause-and-origin-back-bay-fire-that-claimed-lives-boston-firefighters-walsh-and-kennedy/67ijfyKkqAJ0LeaW0o4jGN/story.html?rss_id=Top-GNP&google_editors_picks=true

 

From the sound of it, welding on site was the cause, though the building owners of the building where work was being performed stated they thought the rails would be premade off site. They also say the workers should have applied for a hot work permit before any on site welding was done.

 

 

A reminder for all of us who might occasionally have to do an install on site to make sure we know what if any permits are required and have all the I's dotted and T's crossed, as well as having insurance. Also shows the importance of a fire watch, though I'm not 100% convinced that they might not have had one. There really isn't much evidence after the fact of someone who is watching with a fire extinguisher at hand, especially if the fire smolders for a fair bit of time 1st giving the guys a chance to start packing up. I'll be interested when they actually talk to the guys who were doing the work and hear what precautions they did or did not take.

 

I hate to say it, but the welders that were doing the work are going to get crucified on this. The media circus surrounding the deaths of the two fire fighters almost guarantees that they will get brought up on criminal charges of at least manslaughter and when that's done they'll get nailed in civil court.

[arftist]

In Boston a permit is required for any welding job inside a building and an off duty fireman must be present (and paid, 4 hour minimum.)

 

The fireman is from the nearest station, fully clad and radio equipped. 

 

My guess is there was no fire watch. 

[Frosty]

I can't think of a better argument to NOT cut corners. Were I responsible and hadn't done everything in my power to prevent it, jail time would be the minimum of my pain. Knowing that saving a couple hundred bucks meant more to me than two people BURNING TO DEATH would sure make looking myself in the mirror a HARD thing.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Crazy Ivan]

Being so close to the Charles River makes it windy enough that sparks that would normally not be a serious issue (with fire watch) into this tragedy. Most jobs I worked on in the city did not require an actual fireman on the premise, but did require a one hour orientation for the steward who would appoint a worker (normally an apprentice) as fire watch. Only jobs I can think of where the FD was hired as fire watch was on the Deer Island waste treatment plant and one Harvard job. I think the permitting process decides if you need a fire fighter or not on the job depending on the hot work preformed, conditions, etc. All that aside it's a shame this is what cutting corners lead to this time. 

-Crazy Ivan

[DSW]

In Boston a permit is required for any welding job inside a building and an off duty fireman must be present (and paid, 4 hour minimum.)

 

The fireman is from the nearest station, fully clad and radio equipped. 

 

My guess is there was no fire watch. 

 

 

That's interesting. I did not know that. In that case you are most likely correct that they did not have someone on hand.

 

Most of the jobs I've been on you simply had to have a person dedicated to watch for fires with an extinguisher in most circumstances.  Specialty situations might require something else.

[DSW]

I can't think of a better argument to NOT cut corners. Were I responsible and hadn't done everything in my power to prevent it, jail time would be the minimum of my pain. Knowing that saving a couple hundred bucks meant more to me than two people BURNING TO DEATH would sure make looking myself in the mirror a HARD thing.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

Frosty I wasn't even thinking about the person who deliberately was trying to cut corners. I was thinking a lot about the part time guy who takes on a small side job not really realizing what things actually were required. I see a lot of guys in this economy who are looking to turn a hobby into an additional income source when possible. The guy who is asking about what they can make to sell at flea markets and so on. I'm sure there are plenty of hobbyists who would jump at the chance to make a small railing for a friend or neighbor. Most of these guys would never think that something like this might happen. 

[Glenn]

Edmond J. Zabin, chief of Conley’s homicide unit, said the cast iron work was being installed in 296 Beacon St. where the welding was being done. Sparks from that job spread to the adjacent 298 Beacon St., Zabin said. Officials said shingles on 298 Beacon St. were ignited.

 

Welding cast iron?

 

I contacted a professional welder with many years of experience to get his opinion on welding cast. He said that using nicad rod or brazing would be the way to go. He also said that doing it in the field was a last resort as it was not a controlled condition for welding cast.  The weld puddles should drop straight down not blow off to the side or next door. You should wet down the area around the weld first, then put down a fire blanket, and have water available for putting out any fire that may develop. You would then preform the weld and immediately cover the weld so it would cool slowly.  Many times a tent would be erected so you could control any wind which could rapidly cool the weld and make it brittle or shatter.

 

All this blowing sparks, welding cast iron, and etc sounded a a little suspect to him and he would like full details before he could find any fault in the process. Otherwise it is just speculation with little or no real truth involved.

 

Be as safe as possible, then take the extra precautions to make sure nothing happens to cause damage or injury. When welding, wet down the area around the weld location. Cover any flammable materials with a welding blanket. Keep water available to put out any fires. Have a fire watch during and after the welding to be sure everything is safe and no fires are started. Check again  before you leave the job site.

 

The more dangerous the location, the conditions, and the proximity to flammable materials the more precautions must be taken. 

[DSW]

My guess is by "cast iron" they are referring to just about any sort of decorative metal work railing. I'm surprised they didn't say 'wrought iron", but I wouldn't expect a reporter to know how to use the correct terminology today anyways. I've seen "welders" get blamed for fires caused by anyone who uses some sort of torch, like plumbers or even the roofers putting down a hot roof.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Every year in Oklihoma we have wild land fires started by welding, I try real hard to confine welding to the shop. Tho I admit to a lot less cation with the gas forge.

And as a volentier fire firghter, unlike most casualties in a fire, it usually ist the smoke that gets a fire fighter.

[Robert Yates]

Welding cast iron?

 

I contacted a professional welder with many years of experience to get his opinion on welding cast. He said that using nicad rod or brazing would be the way to go. He also said that doing it in the field was a last resort as it was not a controlled condition for welding cast.  The weld puddles should drop straight down not blow off to the side or next door. You should wet down the area around the weld first, then put down a fire blanket, and have water available for putting out any fire that may develop. You would then preform the weld and immediately cover the weld so it would cool slowly.  Many times a tent would be erected so you could control any wind which could rapidly cool the weld and make it brittle or shatter.

 

All this blowing sparks, welding cast iron, and etc sounded a a little suspect to him and he would like full details before he could find any fault in the process. Otherwise it is just speculation with little or no real truth involved.

 

Be as safe as possible, then take the extra precautions to make sure nothing happens to cause damage or injury. When welding, wet down the area around the weld location. Cover any flammable materials with a welding blanket. Keep water available to put out any fires. Have a fire watch during and after the welding to be sure everything is safe and no fires are started. Check again  before you leave the job site.

 

The more dangerous the location, the conditions, and the proximity to flammable materials the more precautions must be taken. 

 

I Agree 100% "Someone,Somwhere,Somehow" is Not telling all there is to this story of who it happened. I would (REALLY like to know just WHO owns the Property that Burnt and the Realestate project that is to be implamented in the place of the Building that Burnt ! )

 Even with "Wooden Shingles" atop the roof and welding the "Cast, Wrought, or Steel Iron" railing/s the "Sparks, Slag, and/ or weld Puddles Dropping from a weld would have to be Extreamly & Excessive to the point the welder was at Best Most Ignorant,High, or Drunk while the process of preforming the needed repair/ install. I do not see this as a possableity IMHO due to the current research I did Via the net, Personal conections, and even had to call in a few favors ,with in the scope of the said reports(Police ,Fire chief, and Yes Even the curent Status of the Realestate preposal for said locationthat burnt) that have been filed ,reported ,shown and not avalible to the "General Public" One must have certian Credentials to access some information that is /was not reported .

 

And as a volentier fire firghter, unlike most casualties in a fire, it usually ist the smoke that gets a fire fighter.

 

I agree Brother Charles, Smoke, getting ones exit rout cut off by flames , or  a building Collapse is what would have or did take the lives of the firefighters . I do not see the Welder facing "Criminal charges" for this incident. Due to the Process of the Law ..... It will have to be proven 100%  Gross Negligence Vs. Negligence

 

"Negligence" is a failure to exercise ordinary care. In general, negligence occurs when a defendant does not exercise the amount of care that a reasonably careful person would exercise under the same circumstances or when a defendant does something that a reasonably careful person would not do under the same circumstances. To establish negligence, a plaintiff must prove four factors: that the defendant owed a duty to the plaintiff or to the public, that the defendant violated that duty, that the plaintiff suffered injury as a result of the defendant's violation (this is referred to as proximate cause) and that the injury was a reasonably foreseeable consequence of the defendant's negligence.

 

 

"Gross Negligence" is a conscious and willful disregard of the need to use reasonable care. In gross negligence, disregard for care is likely to cause grave injury or harm to a person or persons and/or to property. In short, gross negligence is more extreme conduct than negligence. The difference between the two is the degree of inattention, with only gross negligence being considered reckless conduct. The difference between the two is the degree of inattention, with only gross negligence being considered reckless conduct.

 

"Contributory Negligence" is when the plaintiff's conduct also lacks care. Importantly, contributory negligence can protect a defendant from gross negligence, because it suggests that a plaintiff is also at fault for damages or injuries.

 

While I will offer Prayers to the Fire Fighters Families for their Loses it is Known in the Firefighters World as things that can and will go wrong when it is your time to meet your maker . Fire Fighters are a Special breed as they run into a burning building while others run out of it .

 

NOTE ***** This Post is Just in my opinion and the information herein is just that Information ! that I personal have Knowlage to and have Quoted from "Law Books" and is NOT intended to offend anyone Nor advise anyone with Leagle advice .

 

Blessings & Best Regards

 

P.S. Please disregard the spelling errors as my "Personal Walking Dictionary" ( My Lovely Wife) is asleep this Mornin. <Grins>

 

 

 

[Charles R. Stevens]

Well, the problem with the "law" and the implimintation of the law is that it's humans making the disisians, and for at least a hundred different reasons, despite the letter of the law, one can still go to prison.
But on a very important side note, I personally have began (sense 9/11) thanking law enforcement and fire/EMS pesonel for serving, right along with our soldiers. Not to take one XXXX Thing from the troops, but during peace or war firemen and police officers have put it on the line for their community's every day.
Ive carried a rifle, and a fire axe, and I have friends that carry a gun and shield.

[Robert Yates]

Well, the problem with the "law" and the implimintation of the law is that it's humans making the disisians, and for at least a hundred different reasons, despite the letter of the law, one can still go to prison.
But on a very important side note, I personally have began (sense 9/11) thanking law enforcement and fire/EMS pesonel for serving, right along with our soldiers. Not to take one XXXX Thing from the troops, but during peace or war firemen and police officers have put it on the line for their community's every day.
Ive carried a rifle, and a fire axe, and I have friends that carry a gun and shield.

 

Amen Brother Charles.