First Post and a new hobby

[Tbmartin]

Hello everyone,

Thought I would post a couple questions and get some friendly criticism on my new forge build. I've been interested in blacksmithing for years and have finally started to dig in and get things moving. So far I have made a 5 gallon air tank into the shell of my forge and I made two propane burners to heat this bad boy. I've just bought Kaowool to do two layers of insulation (2600f rating), and I have some kiln mortar good to 3100f to lay down those fibres. I plan on getting ITC-100 but cannot get it locally so I will be ordering it. I picked up some kiln shelf for the flooring and a soft fire brick to add support to the adjustable porch.

So give me any thoughts on the forge build, I'm not sure if both burners will be needed but it can plug off one hole if needed. I thought it's better to have more than rip it down and add a port. Once insulation is all finished I should have a 6 inch port with main door open and 4 inch rear hatch for longer pieces. I'll give an update once I'm closer to finishing the build.

My questions for you guys are more about tools. As I said I'm just starting out so I've been making all kinds of tools at work. I work at a gas plant so there is lots of scrap metal going into recycling so I've been nabbing the odd piece and taking it into the welding shop to make hardies or just to hold onto for tongs and my first forgings.

There is a massive variety of steel that moves through the plant but one very common piece thrown out is b7 studs. I've looked up that it is usually 4140/4142 steel which should be great for some tools. But the whole thing is threaded and usually rusty & pitted. Obviously a quick sandblast takes care of the rust, but has anyone used threaded studs in forge work? I'm assuming it will be fine but just curious if there's any downside. Some of the studs that are thrown out could easily make sledge hammers or power hammer bits with room to spare.

I've already have a solid amount of tools but I need to get an anvil, looking at 100lbs. And some decent hammers, I know everyone is going to have a different opinion but I was looking to get a 4 lbs engineer hammer and 3 lbs cross pien. Does a good hammer make a big difference or should I pick up a twenty dollar joby from a local store? I'm gathering it's how you use the tool not how big it is, but I prefer to get the proper gear instead of having thirty of one thing and only use 3.

Also, just thought I'd say that this forum is very good for all kinds of knowledge. Many of the members should be proud to put together such a wealth of knowledge.

Enough rambling, hopefully I'll get some insulation done and collect some more scrap iron so I can post some updates this weekend.

Cheers,

Taylor

[njanvilman]

Taylor

 

Scrap:  Be sure to avoid anything with chrome, zinc, or other plating  on them.  Fumes will be deadly.

 

Hammers:  You will eventually own many hammers.  Flea markets are always good places to find hammers, even if they need new handles.  Try many, but eventually you will find the few that you use all of the time.

 

Anvil:  Read this site on finding an anvil.  They are out there.  Buy the best you can afford.  A good anvil will last you a lifetime.

 

Information:  Pull up a chair and spend some time on this site reading as many posts about materials and tool as you can.  Then read more.  Then practice, practice, and more practice.

[VaughnT]

Looks like a great forge you're building.  There's really not much more to add to njanvilman's post regarding the sundries, though.  He's pretty spot on.

 

Forging threaded stuff?  If the threads are coarse, you'll get a cold-shut when you pound them down.  This looks like a fine line spiraling up the metal.  It's very attractive on some things, but can be a bummer on others.  

[Tbmartin]

So if I ground off the threads or put them through a quick lathe to knock off the threads it would prevent cold shuts? I will have to see how it looks when I draw out a smaller one, like you said maybe it will look interested for some projects. Threads on these bad boys are 8 threads per inch on anything over 1" round I believe, so yea they are pretty course. I'm very interested in making a few hammers out of one of these studs (its 4 inches thick x 24 + inches long) instead of buying all of them. Might be a tough project to take on at the beginning with my skill level. Most videos I see people are using a power hammer, so I'm guessing I'd need a striker to make the task not make my arm muscles bleed!

 

 Thanks VaughnT, hopefully I can have it fired up next week!

 

Taylor 

[Dan C]

I've used some large threaded bolts to make swage tools that fit in my anvil's hardy hole.  Vaughn's suggestion of pound them down and looking like a spiral could be interesting.  Welcome to the forum & to blacksmithing!  If you haven't already done so look to see if there is a local ABANA group near you.  You'll learn much faster getting to work with other smiths that doing it alone.

 

Almost forgot to say, very nice job on the forge!!!

[billyO]

 I'm gathering it's how you use the tool not how big it is, but I prefer to get the proper gear instead of having thirty of one thing and only use 3.
 

Not entirely true, the size of the hammer is based on the size of material.  There are a few threads on IFI debating this, but the physics of the question can't be argued.

Many smiths move material quickly and efficiently with a 2 - 2 1/2# hammer but you need to go bigger with larger stock, say, inch+ diameter.  My favorite hammer is a 4# sledge, but that's way too big for smaller detail work, like horns on animal heads or petals and leaves on flowers. 
Another thing to consider is how the weight of the hammer will affect you, not the material.  There's NO good reason to cause muscle strains or ligament sprains or other repetitive use injuries.  You can always get a new hammer, tough to get a new body part.

[ThomasPowers]

How big a hammer do you normally swing for hours on end?  Swinging an oversized hammer generally puts a beginning smith on a medical time out as their arm heals---6 weeks to 6 months is fairly common.  If the work takes sledging we advise strikers or a power hammer.

 

As for threads:  you might research stress concentrators or stress risers (perhaps in knifemaking sites).

 

OTOH large bolts with coarse threads sounds like the start of a custom vise build or repair job.  And of course, known steel in useful sizes is good selling/trading material at conferences.  Do work out a deal at work where you buy stuff from them at scrap rate, even at the sell rate it's still a good deal for you and keeping in good at work is an even better deal.  (I often would bring in trinkets for the folks who have to sign off on such deals emphazsizing that it was a hobby not a business for me)

[Tbmartin]

Thanks for the info on hammers, I will start with something on the lighter size as I do not want any strains from this. I play racquet sports regularly so I would hate to be held back from two hobbies with one injury! 

 

Even before reading the TPAAAT thread I had been using the technique with a number of things. I've got ads out on the web, phoned scrap yards, asked everyone and their dog if they have seen an anvil around. I have a lead on two of them but both sound like they want to hold onto them "just in case" they might one day need to straighten out a spoon handle or something. I'm hoping to get something in the range of 100 - 200 lbs, if anyone up here in Canada has a lead on something give me a shout or PM (I'm in Medicine Hat but will drive out). Guess I will continue spreading the word on here to uphold the TPAAAT.  :D

 

Taylor Martin

[VaughnT]

 I'm very interested in making a few hammers out of one of these studs (its 4 inches thick x 24 + inches long) instead of buying all of them...   if they have seen an anvil around...

 

 

Hoss, you've got a chunk of good steel that big, then you've got a great anvil!  I don't know what alloy a bolt like that would be, but it's certainly better than most mild steel, I would guess.   If you can find out the alloy, it might be something you could heat-treat yourself.  Maybe you wouldn't even need to.

 

Look at Viking Age anvils.  They didn't have anything nearly as nice as you do, but that didn't stop them from creating great works of art, and practical tools and accoutrement that we still marvel at today.

 

The key to blacksmithing is being able to see the value in what iron is around you.  We routinely turn scrap into art and functional tools.  A two-foot chunk of steel, four inches thick, is just begging you to stand it on end and hammer away.  Look up "post anvils" on google or the like.  Heck, here's a thread where one of our very own members took some "scrap" and made me very jealous!  '?do=embed' frameborder='0' data-embedContent>>

 

Threads?  It's probably not worth your time and energy to turn the threads off of a drop to make a hammer unless you know the alloy and how to heat treat it properly.  It could be air-hardening, or maybe it can't be hardened - you just don't know.  You certainly don't want to leave them on a tool, though, because the cold shuts create stress risers that can cause the piece to crack or shatter.  That's never good.

 

I once recycled L-anchors into a fire tripod set.  The coarse threads on the ends were drawn to a taper, nothing fancy and certainly not smooth, and then curled over to form the hooks.  Everybody and their mother that saw the tripods asked me how I got those fine lines in there.  Of course, I made up an appropriately complicated technique that demonstrated my willingness to persevere in the face of ungodly forge heat just to give the customer a little something extra!  ;)

 

 

 

Challenge...... We know that coarse threads look neat when pounded out to a taper, but what would it look like if you threaded the end of a rod with both left-hand and right-hand taps?  The cut would almost be like a pineapple twist, but different.  I'm betting it would look like scales on a snake when tapered.

[Tbmartin]

VaughnT,

 

 Never even thought about using it as a post anvil. I've been searching so much for a classic anvil and there was potential right under my nose! I did a little searching online and it looks like those B7 studs are a 4140/4142 alloy steel. 

 

http://www.portlandbolt.com/technicalinformation/astm/ASTM_A193.html

 

After my last post I spoke with another fellow from work and he has an anvil I'm going to chase down at his farm. Might have to post size and make to get help on pricing, I'll try to nab a picture if we don't make a deal on the spot.

 

Taylor

[VaughnT]

 Never even thought about using it as a post anvil.

 

That means you one me one!  Shoot me a pm for my mailing address so you can ship me a 24" hunk of B7!  :D

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Tayler, glad to have you. Nice looking forge and good plan. My only suggestion is to use thread protectors rather than bell reducers as flares on the nozzle end of the burners. Bell reducers are too great a flare and induce bad turbulence reducing the induction rate, hurting performance. You can usually get thread protectors from the plumbing supply for nothing, they just take up space till there are so many they don't cost more to ship back than they're worth or will pay the gas to haul to the scrap yard. Thread protectors are screwed on the ends of pipe to protect the threads in shipping. They're not intended to use as couplers and can't be sold. Offering them scrap price is good PR but usually not accepted, more paperwork than it's worth. The local heating and plumbing supply just points me at the bucket and tells me to have at it.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[beammeupscotty]

Probably the nicest home built forge I have ever seen.  Frosty is right about those bell reducers…not suitable for flares.  I just make flares out of stainless steel pipe I picked up at my local metal supply place.  I paid about thirty five bucks for three feet of it and it should last me for at least a decade.  Another suggestion I'd like to make is that if your Kaowool is 1 inch material, consider putting in three layers instead of two.  Basically, you cannot put too much insulation but you CAN put in too little.  

[Tbmartin]

Just finished a late night insulation session. So far I've got two layers of kaowool. One inch on the floor where it is covered by the kiln shelf. Three layers on the front door, guess i will think about a third layer round but I would like to get some bigger stuff in this bad boy if necessary. I'll have to decide that before ithrow in the cement! Here's a pic so far.

Also, thanks for the compliment. I can't wait to see some heat in that puppy! I will try to find the site I based my burner off but I thought the guy said the threads helped with mixing. I'm not saying you guys are wrong by any means, just letting you know the reason I have it on there. I would like to test this burner set up before changing it so I can get a good grasp of the effects, but your comments are definitely noted. Do you use any itc coating on your burner tips? I think it's itc-285 or something for steel.



Taylor

[Tbmartin]

Oh just another question, I've had a chisel and punch set for a while. Don't use them very often but I'm just wondering if I could use the punches with hot steel? They are drop forged chrome vanadium steel. Here's the set. They don't say cold chisel like another set I have so I'm just making sure before I go and wreck something.

https://www.acklandsgrainger.com/AGIPortalWeb/WebSource/ProductDisplay/globalProductDetailDisplay.do?item_code=WSWWPC14R

Taylor

[njanvilman]

Oh just another question, I've had a chisel and punch set for a while. Don't use them very often but I'm just wondering if I could use the punches with hot steel? They are drop forged chrome vanadium steel. Here's the set. They don't say cold chisel like another set I have so I'm just making sure before I go and wreck something.

https://www.acklandsgrainger.com/AGIPortalWeb/WebSource/ProductDisplay/globalProductDetailDisplay.do?item_code=WSWWPC14R

Taylor

They will work.  Just keep them cool while in use.  You will eventually change the shapes of the cutting ends to better suit what you are doing.  They are your tools; work with them and modify them to suit.

[VaughnT]

T, can you get a nut for these 4" bolts that you have?  I'm thinking that a nut on the end would make a great base to stabilize the post anvil, and talk about making all the other smiths jealous!!  Who else in the world has a giant nut and bolt for their anvil?  Just you, hoss!!

 

Love the forge.  2" of insulation will be fine even with the loss if insulation under the kiln shelf.  Just be sure to add a reflective paint over the insulation so most of the IR is thrown back into the chamber.

[Jeff Coe]

Finding an anvil probably holds more of us newcomers back than any other thing in black smithing. When its really is as simple as a 4" bolt. That being said, While at the local salvage yard picking up some angle I asked about any anvils and they said no on anvils but they had a 20' stick of 5" dia 4140 round stock. They  would sell it by the foot at $175/ ft  and it weighs about 100#/ ft.  So a 100# post anvil of good steel for under $200 bucks. Somebody on site here said it does not have to have a horn and a heel to be any anvil.

[njanvilman]

T, can you get a nut for these 4" bolts that you have?  I'm thinking that a nut on the end would make a great base to stabilize the post anvil, and talk about making all the other smiths jealous!!  Who else in the world has a giant nut and bolt for their anvil?  Just you, hoss!!

 

Love the forge.  2" of insulation will be fine even with the loss if insulation under the kiln shelf.  Just be sure to add a reflective paint over the insulation so most of the IR is thrown back into the chamber.

 

There is a hardware/surplus store extravaganza near Glasboro, NJ called Fazzio's Supply that would have nuts that would fit those bolts.  Sold by the lb.  Best bargain in town.  I go there just to look around, and its 90 miles away. 

[Tbmartin]

  So the bolt anvil has been placed on the back burner sadly, I might just have to make it later on to be a one percent-er! Instead I had a fellow find a chunk of some hard alloy 2" think x 7" long x 6" high. We did a rebound test with a 1" bearing and got about 70% rebound. I then welded it onto a 1" x 4" x 12" flat plate as a base and added a couple anchor bolt holed to secure it. Once I got it home I gave it a weigh just to ease curiosity and it came in at 40 lbs. There is a 1" hole near the one end I thought I could use for punching steel, and I ground down on edge to make a nice rounded corner. It's got a decent ring to it but I will be putting a magnet on the side to deaden the noise (I will be doing alot of forging in my attached garage with the forge out the car door). I don't want things to be too loud as my 9 month old daughters room is above the garage! I'll upload a picture later today, I was going to make a stump for this out of 4 - 4X4 boards strapped and bolter together in a square, but after looking at it last night I thought I should make the base a bit bigger. Maybe 4 8x8's strapped together with banding and bolted together. The height of the top of the anvil face should reach your wrist when standing straight correct?

 

 Now, just this morning another fellow I chatted up about steel will be picking up a hunk of train rail and rail road spikes. So now I will potentially have another anvil from the rail and some decent starter project steel. He asked if I wanted new spikes or old spikes and new or old rail. He said the new rail has a big CANADA stamp on it so I thought that might be kind of a neat touch, but somewhere I read that the older rail was higher carbon content but I cannot seem to find that article again.

 

  Thirdly I have two London style anvils, one weighing 100 lbs and the other is slightly smaller (so the owner thinks). It seems as though once you HAVE something to use and don't NEED an anvil plenty of things appear and come out of the wood work hahaha. I really like the 100# anvil but it is a little roughed up, looks like someone welded parts on top of it (not to the face), because there is welding slag beads and marks on top. The horn is also dinged up from use and I'm just wondering if a flapper disc can be used to smooth out those two surfaces?

 

  One coat of cement has gone on top of the Kaowool insulation now, I don't feel it will be enough so I'm thinking another two coats will do the job. Since it is colder than a snowman's fart up here my garage is not a great place for anything to cure nicely, so I think I will wait extra long between coats and bring the forge into the laundry room at night for extra heat.

 

Enough prattling,

 

Getting excited to shape some steel!

 

Taylor

[VaughnT]

No giant bolt anvil?  I am very sad!  :(

[Tbmartin]

Second layer of cement is on the forge and it looks a heck of a lot better. Got it on a little thicker this time and more evenly spread. Also got the regulator and hoses for the burner and fired up one of them last night. Flame seemed pretty good at 6 psi, I moved the jet forward and back and adjusted the air baffle but didn't get that much of a change in flame colour. It went from a nice blue flame with orange flecks every once in a while to an almost greenish blue. Never found a spot that changed the flame fully orange but I didn't spend too much time testing as it was late, might try lowering the pressure to find where is goes orange. Just to make sure I'm running it in the sweet spot. Here's some pics I grabbed last night. Should have shot the flame without flash I realized now. Ill take some more to compare if I'm running rich later tonight. 

 

   

[Tbmartin]

Burner design was very similar to Kcrucible's design: http://kcrucible.wordpress.com/2010/08/20/burner-modifications/

 

I might still look for a new tip cone but for now I'm focusing on getting some heat to that forge.

 

Taylor

[beammeupscotty]

Second layer of cement is on the forge and it looks a heck of a lot better. Got it on a little thicker this time and more evenly spread. Also got the regulator and hoses for the burner and fired up one of them last night. Flame seemed pretty good at 6 psi, I moved the jet forward and back and adjusted the air baffle but didn't get that much of a change in flame colour. It went from a nice blue flame with orange flecks every once in a while to an almost greenish blue. Never found a spot that changed the flame fully orange but I didn't spend too much time testing as it was late, might try lowering the pressure to find where is goes orange. Just to make sure I'm running it in the sweet spot. Here's some pics I grabbed last night. Should have shot the flame without flash I realized now. Ill take some more to compare if I'm running rich later tonight. 

 

forge.jpg rail.jpg torch.jpg anvil1.jpg

That is probably all the adjustment range you will get on that burner.  The greenish range is going to be a richer mixture.  When you're adjusting, right about when it goes from green to blue will likely be pretty neutral.    I don't think you even want an orange flame so if you cannot get one, your burners are probably working pretty well.

[Tbmartin]

Excellent that's what I like to hear! Thanks beammeupscotty, I won't mess with something too much if it ain't broke!

I put the third and final coat of kiln cement in the forge tonight. After an air dry session I'm going to try to cure it with one burner on low flame. Then it's on to making some tongs... Is that an ambitious first forging project? Hahah either way I'm gonna need them soon!

Taylor