Welding cheats in forged work

[Don A]

I know this has probably been asked before, but...

If I need, for the sake of production, to do some welding with my stick welder and then forge over it to conceal the weld; i.e., make it look like fully forged work,

is there any particular type stick that will blend with mild steel better than others?

Or is the steel core of the rod pretty much the same on the more common rods?

I love a good forge weld if it's for myself or if I'm getting paid for it, but I have learned that Mr. Stick is mighty quick.

Don

[HWooldridge]

The common rods should all blend with commercial mild steel (A36).

For stick welding, I'd say 6010 or 6011 then grind out as much of the bead as possible. For some reason, MIG puddles using bare wire and shielding gas usually blend really weld but you need to do a little prep with anything that has a slag or flux cover after welding.

[Thomas Dean]

I have had good success with 70S-6 hard wire but you HAVE to clean the material before welding and forge at a near forge weld heat. DO NOT forge in a red heat, seems to split more. 9018 for stick seems to work better for me, clean all slag after welding and treat as any other forge weld, KEEP IT HOT while forging. IMO keeping the welded joint HOT is the key to forging it, no matter the technique. Good luck.

[Dan P.]

Don- you're preparing the surfaces to be welded, then welding them, then grinding them smooth, then forging it over to make it look like it was forged to begin with? With all due respect, it seems that there is something amiss here!

[mcraigl]

Don,
Why call it "cheating"? If blacksmiths of old had a mig, you can bet your butt they'd have used it. I guess it depends on what you're selling the customer whether it's cheating or not. Anyway, I have no problem using the MIG. I haven't tried blending stick, but mig and ox/ac are both pretty easy to deal with. As Thomas said, you just gotta keep it hot. One other bit of advice/suggestion. If you don't have a right angle die grinder go get one. Then get one of the egg shaped carbide burrs for it. Those little jewels are really good for blending the weld, then about all you gotta do is get it hot enough to scale, then brush the scale off to get rid of the grinder marks. Then a very small amount of hammer work, and it's indestinguishable from a really good forge weld. Good luck. Show us some pix of what you're working on...

[Don A]

mcraigl,

I agree... it's only cheating if you try to pass it off as something it isn't.

Dan P.,

Nothing really amiss. I wouldn't try to sell an electric welded piece as being fully forge welded.
But if I have a dozen (hypothetical) pieces to join, crappy coal, A-36 steel with questionable parentage, and a customer who doesn't care, I'll use it.
If he doesn't want it to look like an electric weld, I'll forge over it.

If it does matter, I'll forge weld it, or die trying

Thanks to all for the advice,

Don

BTW, this question originated with an actuall piece I am working on, so I'll post pics and clarify when I get it done.

[Dan P.]

It's always been a bit of a touchy subject, the traditional vs. contemporary techniques argument, so as a newbie I'll refrain from elaborating on my opinions for the moment. I will say, however, that I would be surprised if there were many people who couldn't tell the difference between an arc or mig weld and a fire weld! Also to address mcraigl's comment about blacksmiths of old using electric welding equipment- well, yes! But isn't that pretty much who we are? Blacksmiths with welding machines? I'm sure if they'd had them back then some people would have used them alot, and some people would have been snooty about them, just as they are today.

[mcraigl]

Dan,
I'm not touchy about it at all. To put it point blank, straight up, all out truth. I'm not that good at forge welding. My forge welding abilities are far behind the rest of my forging abilities. I do try to do at least one practice weld each time I light the forge (don't hold me hard and fast to that, but I do try). Would you have me not create pieces that require a weld until I'm an expert at forge welding?

I guess to me, in the artistic part of this equation, the form, composition, and balance of the piece are more visually important that method of joinery unless the joint is so horrible looking that it draws your eye away from the rest of the elements in the piece. Which is what would happen much of the time if I restricted myself to forge welds only. Now if I was doing demonsrtations at a historic park or something of the like I wouldn't drag my MIG out. But I'd probably limit the scope of the pieces I demonstrated to those that either required no welds, or only required welds that I'm good at in the fire.

I hear ya on the traditional vs. contemporary thing. I use a handcranked coal forge, that ought to count for something shouldn't it? My Peter Wright is nearly a century old now. I guess what I'm saying is that I feel like many people confuse the terms when speaking of traditional vs. contemporary and speak as though they feel that "traditional" and "authentic" are the same. I live in one of the newer "colonies" and so I would argue your point about "people" being able to recognize the difference between an electric weld or a fire weld. Blacksmiths and welders might be able to see the difference, but the average shmoe wouldn't. they might recognize a difference, but they wouldn't interpret the difference in the same way you and I would. Just look at all the chinese made junk that's sold in Walmarts etc.

Anyway, there. I broke the ice for ya. As long as a person keeps their language civil, there's no reason not to voice your opinion, newbie or not. Newbie on this forum doesn't equate to newbie in smithin'. I'd love to hear you opinions, and see what your techniques would be. Sorry for the long rant. Hopefully no-one will take it as any sort of assault. Mostly I wanted to demonstrate to Dan that not only is it OK to voice your opinion, but in fact it's what this place is for.

ML

[Rich Hale]

I watched a smith demo how he welds leaves to stems and like it..He leaves a bit of a stem on the leaf and drills a hole through both pieces useing some eighth inch rod he rivits the two pieces together then forge welds them rivit hold everything in position.

[HWooldridge]

Tools often dictate technique. In a time when electric welding didn't exist, everything had to be forge welded (or riveted) - even very large items like ship's anchors. In some applications today, the forge weld can be as fast or faster than an electric or O/A gas weld but it's usually limited to the type of items we produce as smiths and not widely used in industry.

I never fret about whether or not to forge weld unless the customer specifically asks for it. I often make up the traditional scarfs for a particular joint and tack them with the MIG - one dot to hold the pieces together. I do this because I work alone and don't want to mess around with "dropping the tongs". The finished product cannot be differentiated from one that was not tacked. Other times, I weld the pieces completely, grind the puddles, heat to bright yellow and hammer it out. Not one client has complained, "Why didn't you forge weld it?"

[sfDuck]

The way I see it its all deDUCKtable. How you get it to stick together maters less than what it looks like when finished. If the joints melt together and have a pleasing flow to the eye; how you got there maters little to the customer unless specified. If your friends have to walk to your party or drive in a cadillac suv you just want to see them come through the door with a smile on their face.

[Ten Hammers]

It all boils down to this : Customer decides. Traditional or "modern techniques " . Either way I put my touchmark on it.

[Don A]

A lot of this debate depends on your definition of "traditional".

Remember, if you get back a little more than a century, you need to be working with nothing but wrought iron (pure FE) for all of your utilitarian projects. Steel is going to be reserved for tools. Welding is going to be a different story all together.

I spend one weekend a month in 1756... bellows & charcoal, no electricity. I still have to use 1018 or A-36. My anvil looks 250 years old, but it was made last year. Point is, there are always compromises. Without them, we'd never get anything done.

Don

"The 18th century is a fun place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there."

[Frosty]

Period not traditional.

The true tradition of the blacksmith in the 21st century is sitting in a clean room wearing comfy clothes, sipping a refreshing beverage and watching the CNC machinery on a monitor.

Virtually every serious improvement in metal working technology over the ages was made by a smith trying to save time, money and his/er back.

Period on the other hand is the time frame you wish to limit your practice to. Not a thing wrong with it as long as you kep it in perspective.

There are only a few serious sins for the smith: Not charging enough being #1.

Being honest is in the same league. There's nothing wrong with chucking 21' of 1/2" sq in a power twister as long as you're not claiming it's hand twisted.

Arc welding was invented by a smith name of Miller who was tired of losing built up pieces to failed forge welds. Samuel Yellin's shop arc welded much of the work they did.

Just don't BS the customer about it.

Frosty

[Dan P.]

My problem, to be blunt, is that I've heard the "time and money" excuse from too many "smiths" who just don't have the skills to do it properly, and who, as it happens, are not particularly time or cost effective either!
As far as fire-welding being period rather than traditional, well, it depends how good you are at it. I don't know if I'm quicker at fire welding than I am at grinding back and forging over electric welds, I might be, but either way, I see it like this; if it takes me 30 minutes to do it by "cheating", and 45 to do it the old way, the former is a fairly boring 30 minutes, the latter is what gets me out of bed in the morning. I would never say that electric welding has no place in my smithy, and I am neither a lunatic nor a millionaire that I'm going to try and fire-weld crummy security grilles or spend my time riveting up big structural bits of plate, but mine is a smithy first, and the fire is king.
Lastly, I would like to add that when I first wanted to get into blacksmithing I was told time and again that I was going to have to realize that the "traditional" techniques weren't feasable, that it was "too expensive", etc. I am very grateful to have since met smiths who have shown me that the techniques used are entirely the choice of the craftsman, whether the customer knows the difference or not. I guess in the end it is a question of what you want for yourself.

[mcraigl]

...and the fire is king.

Dan, that there is one nice bit of poetry. Hope you don't mind, but I'm stealing that for my tag line!

I feel where you're coming from on the topic. Remember, I was forthwrite about not having all the skills. My mentor "makes" me do forge welds without flux. He feels that flux is a crutch (cheat), and having flux residue leach out of your nice piece of work over time is worth learning how to do without.

Let me give you a scenario. I was approached by a local taxidermist to make him a cattail. His plan was to mount a green wing teal on the tip of it to take to the semi-annual World Taxidermist Competition. I'd shown him some cattails I'd made in the past and he though it'd be better than his normal painted clay and wire affair. Problem was that he needed it in 5 days. The stem of this cat-tail was about 5/16" textured round bar. The leaves wrap around this like a sheath, with the leafy parts coming away from the stem at various distances from the base. Now "traditionally" We would neck down a bit of pipe for the head of the cattail until the 5/16" bar fits snuggly at each end, then forge weld it all closed. I made two attempts and couldn't get the thing to forge weld. It just kept pinching off the rod. So I necked the tube 'til closed, then chucked it in the lathe and bored a perfect 5/16 hole in each end to pass the rod through then mig'd at the top. Then I chucked the whole thing in the lathe again and bored a 1/8" hole in the center of the stem so he had a point to mount the bird via a wire coming out of its toe. I drilled holes in the back side of the leaves were they are like sheats and mig'd to the stem / each other. I blended the welds and scaled and brushed and you cannot see where they were welded. Bottom line is Charly won the world competition with that mount this spring, and I think it would be fair to say that it was examined with a fairly critical eye. I don't currently have the skill to pull those things off purely in the fire, but feel like I have enough artistic vision, imagination, and ingenuity to put out some nice pieces. Do I want to continue to develop my skills so that I might be able to do more stuff "in the fire"? Heck yes. But I'd get bored and quit smithing all together if I was only allowed to practice forge welds every time I light the forge.

Sorry I'm so long winded. You can really tell when I'm bored at work huh?

[Daryl]

To lament over the over-use or under-use of electric / gas / fire welding is a moot point. It is important to know ALL of the fastening techniques; welding in a fire / with gas / or electricity. Do not forget rivets, collars and mortise-and-tenon. At the end of the day, it is what will get the job done in the most efficient manner. If fire-welding is part of the project and the cost has been factored in, I see no problem with the expense of a fire-weld, it is a added feature to the work. Electric welding is also suitable when required.

ALL of the skills we discuss in this or any other forum are necessarry to the survival of our Craft.

As has been said already, just do not misrepresent the work; such does not reflect on your reputation or the industry in general. This is a honorable skill, let's keep it that way.

[dimag]

6010 and 6011 have worked for me.I have had less success with 70XX rod.Clean metal is important and post weld,work the metal hot,near forge welding temp.The last part is important,as I found out.I was told that by both Bill Epps and Jock Dempsey.Hey why would I listen to those 2 guys?.Turns out it cracks and even breaks if ya work it too cold.
As for the "tradition".I have noticed that blacksmiths tend to be forward thinking people,problem solvers.My guess is if the smiths of old could have replaced a mule powered board drop for an electric driven one,they would have.If they had access to propane they would have used it.An arc welder is just another tool [mmm tools,I love tools].Whatever it takes to get the job done.

[Dan P.]

Reading the posts on this thread through, I see a recurring theme- that innovations (electric welding, propane forges et al) are presumed to be more efficient, which is really not necessarily true. In the flurry of change that saw the village blacksmith become village mechanic in one generation, in many places a lot of the efficient methods of using the old (but efficient) techniques were lost. In some places, however, smiths maintained their practices, because they were stubborn or lazy, perhaps because they were ignorant, or perhaps they assessed the new technology and found it wanting.
For example; I was extremely lucky to briefly study under a successful and venerable smith who uses leather bellows, because his master used them, and so on, all the way back (I understand they were pretty common in country smithies up till the 70's)! People think him eccentric, but his bellows are not less efficient than a blower. And what does his "eccentricity" cost him? Somewhat stronger shoulders, a somewhat smaller electricity bill, and an unforgettable rythm and cadence unchanged for millenia.
Again, it boils down to what you personally choose, and your ability to fully inform those choices.

[Ten Hammers]

I have found this thread interesting. I will agree with Dimag and Dan both in that while old ways are definitely faster and more effieient in many ways, modern ways are absolutely not only fine but superior of course. I attend several pre-1840's events throughout the year, some 1860's and one 1900-1910 as well as a County Fair ( I don't camp at the fair but do camp at other events). I will from time to time encounter folks that have no real knowledge but try and tell me how things were done " back then " . A google search is what I base some of my historical reference from and books I have read are also a reference. Some Museums have good reference material. We as smiths owe it to the people (that see us at events) to be accurate in our facts. I try and learn something every day and many times I will learn from folks AT events ( customers ).

[jeremy k]

I'll agree that this is an interesting read. It all boils down to innovation of new(or should I say different) methods that were born from older ways and refined by someone to make it easier on them for which tools they have access to them at the time. The world revolves money(or bartering mat'ls per say)- That is a known fact for hundreds of years. It's always been kind of a competition to do things faster or better while having the cost remain low - so - one can get ahead in life. I can appreciate all the time that goes into something that is made strictly from hand - no power tools. Yes - I do know that some things are quicker by hand. Although if the old smiths working in their shops years ago were so stubborn to keep doing things by hand they wouldn't have boughten line shafts and gas engines to run a post drill,grinder or a power hammer, to make it easier on them to be able to get rid of some costs(say an employee). Everyone does what they have to to make a the almighty buck - that's life - I accept it. I do like the looks and the feeling of doing things with just an coal forge, anvil and hammer - it's a sense of accomplishment when done and without the reliance of modern equipment. The blacksmith way is seeing it done and then knowing there's 10 different other ways of doing the same thing to get the same results. - JK

[tbrforge]

I have had only one customer specify anything about a weld joint (for commissioned art work) and that was "Make it pretty" All structural work has a basic level of quality demands that I meet internally, or it doesn't go out the door. I regularly spend more time than I should, to satisfy me, I am the most critical of my work. In conclusion, just as there is more than one way to skin a cat, whatever works in the shop that makes the customer happy, so be it. When I TIG weld a railing, I am still using my hands and fire, no flux.
My godfather was part of the blacksmith evolution/industrial explosion in the pre and post war period. How often I remember him saying "oh pashaw, I wish I could have done that years ago"

[Ten Hammers]

"oh pashaw, I wish I could have done that years ago"

THIS makes me smile. I can hear this in my mind. The old folks that I grew up around were the epitome of the statement. My parents, Grandparents and most of the old folks around me were very glad to have electricity and indoor plumbing ( not to mention oil stoves and de-frosters in the truck and car ).

[High Plains Forge]

I used to try to be really traditional when I got hired to make something. Then I quickly realized that no one outside of the blacksmithing world cares and you will be losing money big time if you are trying to do drop the tongs forge welds all day long (at least I would, someone like Whitaker might not have). I still try to use as little electric welding as possible, but when I do weld and blend it in, I usually grind the weld down, then go over it with a flap disc, and forge it lightly to match the rest of the piece.

[J W Bennett]

I use a mixed bag of techniques and the best part is everyday I work in the smithy I redifine and modify those techniques a I learn. If I am doing production work I use the mig alot. If it's a single piece or if it really shows (basket twists for example) I will forge weld. The forge weld takes more time one reason being I average about a 75% success rate. I practice and I see improvement but there are days that I'd have more success snipe hunting.
I use Mig,O/A, Stick, Benders, Power hammer, Grinders (Belt,Wheel and Side arm), Drills, Blasting Cabinet, etc......
I strive to turn out a quality product and I enjoy my approach. I enjoy Demo's where I am limited to hand tools and I beleive that demo's make me a better smith. But day to day I use the means available to me and I keep an eye out for tools(hand and power) that will help me do the job better and often faster.
As I have often stated on this forum I am not a fast smith. If I go too fast I make mistakes and also it becomes a job. I use a mixed bag and thats my approach. It doesn't matter if I forge weld or mig, at the end of the day I can sit in the shop and feel pride in my work.

Time to hop of this soap box, Lunch is ready.

John