English water cooled forge

[Ferrous Beuler]

It seems like these sideblast ones are NOT around for a reasson, they sound like a PITA to use compared to a regular firepot forge.

PITA(?):confused:

[Ferrous Beuler]

Not necessarily a PITA to use, just to construct. I think, like everybody else in the world, blacksmiths get excited by the promise of new, exotic and, perhaps, more efficient systems. In this particular case, the exitement seems to be immediately followed by the question "how is this convoluted and inconvenient system better than the one I already have?" Once people get over the novelty of it, they will probably go back to what they learnt on.
Similarly, I have worked on a number of home-made bottom blast forges here in the UK, and they never work quite right, because we don't have the know how and accumulated experience, and because they aren't available commercially, so we don't even know what a "proper" one should look like!

Dan, Hello, I love this- Blacksmiths from around the world tagging along together on an ongoing conversation- great stuff. It is such a leap in human relations, this whole internet thing. When I was a kid 30 years ago my friends and I would get into fights with kids from a few blocks away because they were so "foriegn". Now we can all chat as though we were all next door nieghbors.
So it's nice to share all these ideas and experiences on the computer but it is at last, only in print and pictures. There is some loss in translation here and there and of course there is no substitute for meeting face to face over an anvil and "getting one's hands mucky".
I have to hand it to Glenn the administrator for putting this all together and ultimately bringing us all together to share all of this- our world of blacksmithing.
Loving every minute of it all and learning a lot all the while I participate on this forum. Dan:)

[Glenn]

My pleasure Dan.

The blacksmithing community has been about helping each other, and the exchange of information. IForgeIron is translated into several foreign languages, and is visited by over 50 world wide countries each month. As we reach out to help others they in turn help us.

[evfreek]

Hi Archie. No, I have not used charcoal in the water cooled ones. Seems like it is not too necessary, due to the lower intensity of the fire. I have used the water cooled forges with coal and coke. They seem to work just fine.

[Dan P.]

SOrry Dan, I didn;t mean to sound like i was saying they are crud. You are right, it comes down to familiarity. I learned on a bottom blast, so am more comfortable with them, i should not have sounded so close minded and i apologise. I would like to try one, a properly made one as well and i might see what I am missing.

No apology or explanation necessary, Apprenticeman, I was really just elaborating on what you said. I would also add that expressing criticism, positive or negative, of any particular design is to be encouraged, and there is nothing close minded about rejecting a bad idea.

[Ferrous Beuler]

This turned out to be a good post and I learned a good bit here. THANK YOU to those who offered their time with incite and guidance. I am a bottom forge coalburner, a product of the prevailing landscape. It's very nice to get a perspective on what is used elsewhere around the world to heat it and beat it. More than one way to skin a cat. Dan:)

[John B]

With reference to the Baker Vaughn links and their solid tue irons. Having used one of these, in my experience they are better suited to coal as it is not as fierce as coke. Even then, I had a problem with a hand cranked forge, using coal on a solid tue iron when an over enthusistic assistant kept cranking even when I had no iron in the fire, and at the end of the day when I had shut down the fire and cleaned out the ash and clinker, I found the front of the tue had melted and receded a good 3/4 of an inch from the start of the day. Needless to say it has not happened since

[John B]

Hi Dan P, with reference to your experiences with bottom blast forges in the Uk, again the Baker Vaugh links give details of a commercially available firepot in the Uk, prior to that Alcosa made and used them in portable and fixed forges. I am somewhat puzzled as to how the ones you have used did not work right, I and our Guild members have made a number of these bottom blasts, and found them to be very succesful. The latest one I made last week is meant to be used at shows and demos and although being relatively small, 16" x 16" hearth, and a 1/3 HP motor it will quite happily bring 3/4" square bar to a welding heat.

I have forge welded 2" square solid wrought iron in an Alcosa bottom blast forge in preference to a side blast forge as it was more suited to that type of forge. It had to be a good weld as the bar in question was to support a weather vane on a church tower.
The architect responsible for repairs to the tower had decided that structure was too tall by six foot and the overall height had to be reduced, being a blacksmith I would just have cut six foot off the bottom of the bar, but for some reason, the top six foot had been cut off, consequently it had to be rejoined and the bottom six foot cut off instead.

Its all good fun

[HWooldridge]

With reference to the Baker Vaughn links and their solid tue irons. Having used one of these, in my experience they are better suited to coal as it is not as fierce as coke. Even then, I had a problem with a hand cranked forge, using coal on a solid tue iron when an over enthusistic assistant kept cranking even when I had no iron in the fire, and at the end of the day when I had shut down the fire and cleaned out the ash and clinker, I found the front of the tue had melted and receded a good 3/4 of an inch from the start of the day. Needless to say it has not happened since

John,

Thanks for the reply - that tells me that if I decide to build a side blast, it probably should be a water cooled model.

[Blacksmith Jim]

Sam,

I don't think fire maintenance is harder or easier on either a side or bottom blast. The only thing that is sort of a PITA is the size of forge, since it is bigger and has the attached water tank etc. Mine could also be made a lot smaller in general. It was built over sized. But heating up metal and getting the metal hot in a specific place is easier for me in a side blast. Much less constriction due to the size of the firepot.

[devon blacksmith]

Hi HWooldridge you aked if any British chaps have experience with the non-watercooled models, I have both types the water cooled has needed welding once and that was when I moved my workshop I think It must have had a hard trip the other burns away about every 2 to 3 months (both of these are in constant use)

[matt87]

devon blacksmith, do you use a plain steel or stainless tue iron in the non-water coled version?

[philip in china]

If you have a look at Vaughans on line catalogue at www.anvils.co.uk you will see several parts illustrated. They also currently have some plans etc. for you to build your own (obviously hoping you will buy some parts from them). It should make things very clear. They do make very good poratble forges and supply most of the ones for educational establishments in UK.

I am happy with either a bottom or a side blast. The side blast is a bit more difficult to build but most of the difficulty is in getting a water tight seal which is also heatproof. I didn't worry too much about that though provided any leaks were not going onto my fuel.

I never had a problem just throwing a bit more water in to the trough when things got a bit too warm. On a cold day it actually provides a convenient little slack tub if you are working very small items.

Certainly if you get the chance do try a side blast. I think you would be pleasantly surprised.

[Glenn]

Bad link, you want to try to post it again?

[philip in china]

The link is correct www.anvils.co.uk I had difficulty getting through to it myself but I think the problem is at their end. Keep it on ice for 24 hours and I will mail them and see if I can get it fixed.

[devon blacksmith]

Hi matt87 I use a 2"x2"x2" block of mild steel in the no water tue

[matt87]

Have you tried using stainless? I've read somewhere it doesn't burn out like mild in a non-water tue, but I can't find the source right now.

[devon blacksmith]

Thanks mat I shall try that next time.

[John B]

Matt, for a dry tue iron, cast iron was used (use an old cannon ball when you find one on your archeological excursions) but usually with coal or charcoal, coke burns much more fiercely and will burn away unless well insulated, look at some old brick built forges as to how they were constructed, including how the smoke was extracted.

If you are making a side blast water cooled job, I can't see the problem with sealing it, the problem with buying a proprietery one is that they are assemblies and need gaskets, if you make one you don't need gaskets.

You have used the blacksmith made ones at Westpoint, so you should be able to make an assesment on them and how they work, bear in mind they are going full ahead for up to 8 hours solid when the Devon County Show is on, and they only have a 1/2inch thick mild steel plate as front pieces to the water jacket, and they have been regularly worked with the courses and shows held there since 2000 and are still going strong with little sign of erosion.

[matt87]

The forges at Westpoint are indeed very fine from what I could tell (not having much experience). I suggest that anyone wanting to build a 'proper' water cooled backblast forge contact John B for advice; his work is excellent (he built most of them).

Thing is, a full-on back blast forge complete with water bosh etc. is quite complex and not very portable. In fact without an arc welder there aren't many ways of fabricating the tue. You can cast it I suppose, but this has obvious problems. You can buy it, but at a ahigh price, with othe disadvantagees as discussed. You could also knock one up with plumbing parts (3/4in pipe nipple inside 2in pipe nipple with a through-threaded bell reducer is one way).

People may be put off building one because of these reasons. Eliminate the water cooling, and what do you need to build? A box on legs with a hole in the back side and a bit of pipe sticking through. Fill it with sand, ash or whathaveyou, hook up an air supply and build a fire. Simple, cheap and quick way to see if you like back blasts. Remember that there are very few back blast forges outside of Europe and Britain... I expect most smiths in the US have never seen one in the flesh (aside from a ground forge for instance).

The reason I suggested trying stainless as a dry tue is because I heard it doesn't burn out like mild does, which is the main disadvantage of a dry tue forge over a wet one. As I recall, even the old drilled-through cannon balls were sacrificial, though they lasted a while.

[John B]

If you can't get to grips with the back blast, go for the bottom blast, they use less space, and can be made very cheaply, less technology involved than with the back blast, no water needed, so less parts to make, and all the heating capabilities you will need, easier to make long fires with for blademaking or long twists.

Potentially the most expense will be the blower unit but again these can be sourced from various junked items

If you want to seriously get some heat resistant material for a tue why not try titanium if we are talking theoretical. (May be hard to find and a tad expensive) but cheap to think about.

[matt87]

Titanium looks good for the job. How about tungsten? It seems fine for the melting temperature. Again price is steep, but perhaps there are sources less expensive... like this with Mr Hoffi: BP1013Tungsten Tools

[John B]

Why not just get a welder and start. you can get a stick welder brand new for less than

[philip in china]

The link to Vaughans. seems to be working OK now.
It is worth a look.

Re tungsten at what temperature does tungsten start to oxidise?

[matt87]

Why not just get a welder and start. you can get a stick welder brand new for less than