Problem Forge Welding a ball end on rod

[Ken G]

I ran into a problem this weekend. I was trying to forge the ball on the end of the handle for a vise. I'm not an expert forge welder by any means but I can normally do better than this. I saw the demo on "I-Forge How To" and it looked simple enough however it was not for me. Welding of the ring together wasn't a problem. Getting the ring to weld to the rod proved to be impossible for me. No matter what I tried I could not even get it to stick a little.

 

I brought both pieces (ring and rod) up to heat several times, wire brushed, back into the forge to bring to welding heat. Slow air, Borax added to the ring and rod while in the fire, got the melted butter look, out of the forge, used easy taps to get started. As soon as it cooled the ring would slide. Tried again with more heat, more flux. Same result. More heat, more flux and wire brushing, this time waiting till I had sparks..........same result.

 

I suspect the ring was not allowing the rod (under the ring) to get to welding heat. It looked like rain so I broke out the welder and welded the ring in place. Finished shaping the ball. I lost mass on the handle so I'll be doing it again this weekend. Unless someone tells me what I did wrong I will use square for the ring and weld it to the rod as I wrap. Will this work better?

 

Any suggestions are appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

Ken

[Jim Coke]

Greetings Ken,

 

Just a few thoughts on your process...   It looks like you have a lot of scale at the weld area... Clean Clean Clean...  The next thing I noticed was is that I would form the ball mass square for surface area contact ... Looks like you formed round stock..    Square stock is also easer to scarf...

 

I hope this helps..

Jim

[Ken G]

Jim,

Agreed on both points.  I had planned to use sqaure stock on the next try or at the very least take my round stock to a half round.  Do you agree it would be easier to weld the ring as I wrap it rather than forming a ring and welding?  I seems by wrapping it first, no matter what I do I will have scale trapped between the ring and rod.

Thanks,

Ken

[Jim Coke]

Greetings again Ken,

 

I watched Peter Ross do it just like I explained.   Wrap it on a scrap shaft first , remove it and clean the I.D.  ...  I have done it in the past this way and it works.

 

Good luck

Jim

[JNewman]

Welding a ball on the end of a rod like this is much easier if you use a bottom swage or v block.  It helps prevent the weld opening up on the sides then you turn the stock and then open up the sides  you just got to stick.  It also helps as you can drop the ball beyond the swage and dress the end and it backs up the forging.  Matched swages makes this  one of the easiest forge welds you can do. 

 

Normally having a small gap between the ends of the wrapping bar helps with welding.  But a trick an old industrial blacksmith taught me is to use a nut (unplated) to make the ball rather than bending a bar around the end.   Use a nut that fits tightly on the bar tapering it to fit looks good for ornamental applications.  A square nut gives you more mass to make the ball. 

[Frank Turley]

I've done a few of these for cane bolt handles. I pretty much follow the suggestions in the book. "The Blacksmiths' Craft." Mostly, I weld 1/4" x !/2" around a 1/2" D upset end. The upset becomes conical shaped, and I get rid of that by reforging it parallel sided, but it is still a good upset. I don't scarf the flat stock. The ends are right angle cut, butted. I leave a gap of 1/8" or so on the wrap. It fills when welding, and before welding, I squeeze the ring onto the round stock using various holds in the vise. I use borax. I take a moderate, rising heat so that the round bar gets hot. When I go to the anvil, I slap the weld on the anvil face, sans hammer, with the flat of the ring opposite the gap. This usually starts the weld. I can then turn the work and hammer from the closed toward the open ends, attempting to fill the gap. It takes me several welding heats to get what I want, and I keep working the shoulder against the radiused edge of the anvil.

 

Sayings and Cornpone

"If you speed up your computer, you can waste time faster."

[Ken G]

Sure sounds easy when you guys explain it.  hahahaha.  Thanks for the advise and suggestions.  I'll give it another try this weekend.

 

Ken

[Rich Hale]

i read that you have quite a bit of heat in pieces when you flux,,if that is the case flux as soon as you see color,,just hot enought that flux will stick. I would also want to know if the steels are the same..A 36 gives a lot of folks trouble welding,.,if one of them is that and other is not i would try matching steels...

[anvil]

I upset the round bar, cut and roll the flat bar to fit the round bar,no scarf here and 1/8" short. Then bring the round bar to a good yellow. Slip the flat onto the round. Here I usually bevel the round bar, set the flat ring on my anvil face and tap them in. Tighten up on anvil face, flux well, put back into the fire and bring the whole to a forgewelding heat.

I like Turley's idea of tapping the back side on the anvil as this is the most likely place for a coldshut. I usually start my weld beyond 90 degrees from the gap and lightly forge around to the gap. Then same procedure from the other side. This starts my weld furtherst away from the gap on both sides. Then wirebrush, reflux and back in the fire for another welding heat.

The critical step is to bring the shaft to a good yellow first. This transfers heat outwards to the collar, and insures the center is hot enough to make a welding heat without burning the collar. Most failures are due to a too cold center, no matter how hot the collar gets.

You can leave a bit of the round bar protruding out of the collar if you want then upset at a welding heat to give a bit more material to play with at the top.

I've done this with 1" round and 1/2"x1" for acorn finials down to 1/4" x1/4" for special bolt heads as well as balls, faceted "crystals", and various ovals.

Square to square is much harder as its very hard to get the corners welded up. If you weld one flat then bend the sides up is very awkward, imprecise and time consuming.

If you use a square headed nut or piece of drilled square bar, hacksaw one side, bring the threaded round to a yellow, set the nut on your anvil and gently set the round into/ thru the nut on the flat or over the pritichel hole tighten up the two with light hammer, flux, bring to welding heat and weld her up. Nice square headed bolt. The actual weld is round to round and the hacksaw cut gives enough gap for the weld. The round bar can be threaded or not.

The reason for the gap is to give the collar somewhere to go as you forgeweld and actually draw it out to a slightly longer length. Otherwise the solid collar, or butted ends will move the collar away from the round bar and an incomplete weld will result.

If you want a square shaft, upset the end of the square bar, round it up, making sure the round end is larger dia then the diag of the square. Follow the above steps and clean up the transition below collar to square bar beneath.

Have fun.

[anvil]

I upset the round bar, cut and roll the flat bar to fit the round bar,no scarf here and 1/8" short. Then bring the round bar to a good yellow. Slip the flat onto the round. Here I usually bevel the round bar, set the flat ring on my anvil face and tap them in. Tighten up on anvil face, flux well, put back into the fire and bring the whole to a forgewelding heat.

I like Turley's idea of tapping the back side on the anvil as this is the most likely place for a coldshut. I usually start my weld beyond 90 degrees from the gap and lightly forge around to the gap. Then same procedure from the other side. This starts my weld furtherst away from the gap on both sides. Then wirebrush, reflux and back in the fire for another welding heat.

The critical step is to bring the shaft to a good yellow first. This transfers heat outwards to the collar, and insures the center is hot enough to make a welding heat without burning the collar. Most failures are due to a too cold center, no matter how hot the collar gets.

You can leave a bit of the round bar protruding out of the collar if you want then upset at a welding heat to give a bit more material to play with at the top.

I've done this with 1" round and 1/2"x1" for acorn finials down to 1/4" x1/4" for special bolt heads as well as balls, faceted "crystals", and various ovals.

Square to square is much harder as its very hard to get the corners welded up. If you weld one flat then bend the sides up is very awkward, imprecise and time consuming.

If you use a square headed nut or piece of drilled square bar, hacksaw one side, bring the threaded round to a yellow, set the nut on your anvil and gently set the round into/ thru the nut on the flat or over the pritichel hole tighten up the two with light hammer, flux, bring to welding heat and weld her up. Nice square headed bolt. The actual weld is round to round and the hacksaw cut gives enough gap for the weld. The round bar can be threaded or not.

The reason for the gap is to give the collar somewhere to go as you forgeweld and actually draw it out to a slightly longer length. Otherwise the solid collar, or butted ends will move the collar away from the round bar and an incomplete weld will result.

If you want a square shaft, upset the end of the square bar, round it up, making sure the round end is larger dia then the diag of the square. Follow the above steps and clean up the transition below collar to square bar beneath.

Have fun.

[Ken G]

The rod came from a scrap pile at work and most of ther prints call for A-36.  I assume both pieces were the same. 

Ken 

[Ken G]

The rod came from a scrap pile at work and most of ther prints call for A-36.  I assume both pieces were the same. 

Ken 

[anvil]

I upset the round bar, cut and roll the flat bar to fit the round bar,no scarf here and 1/8" short. Then bring the round bar to a good yellow. Slip the flat onto the round. Here I usually bevel the round bar, set the flat ring on my anvil face and tap them in. Tighten up on anvil face, flux well, put back into the fire and bring the whole to a forgewelding heat.

I like Turley's idea of tapping the back side on the anvil as this is the most likely place for a coldshut. I usually start my weld beyond 90 degrees from the gap and lightly forge around to the gap. Then same procedure from the other side. This starts my weld furtherst away from the gap on both sides. Then wirebrush, reflux and back in the fire for another welding heat.

The critical step is to bring the shaft to a good yellow first. This transfers heat outwards to the collar, and insures the center is hot enough to make a welding heat without burning the collar. Most failures are due to a too cold center, no matter how hot the collar gets.

You can leave a bit of the round bar protruding out of the collar if you want then upset at a welding heat to give a bit more material to play with at the top.

I've done this with 1" round and 1/2"x1" for acorn finials down to 1/4" x1/4" for special bolt heads as well as balls, faceted "crystals", and various ovals.

Square to square is much harder as its very hard to get the corners welded up. If you weld one flat then bend the sides up is very awkward, imprecise and time consuming.

If you use a square headed nut or piece of drilled square bar, hacksaw one side, bring the threaded round to a yellow, set the nut on your anvil and gently set the round into/ thru the nut on the flat or over the pritichel hole tighten up the two with light hammer, flux, bring to welding heat and weld her up. Nice square headed bolt. The actual weld is round to round and the hacksaw cut gives enough gap for the weld. The round bar can be threaded or not.

The reason for the gap is to give the collar somewhere to go as you forgeweld and actually draw it out to a slightly longer length. Otherwise the solid collar, or butted ends will move the collar away from the round bar and an incomplete weld will result.

If you want a square shaft, upset the end of the square bar, round it up, making sure the round end is larger dia then the diag of the square. Follow the above steps and clean up the transition below collar to square bar beneath.

Have fun.

[anvil]

Sorry for the multi posts, funky phone

anvil

[Stephen Olivo]

There are two ways I have seen a coller added to a bar.  One is as two bars.  A pin is captured in the parent bar and the additional bar is placed over it keeping the two together.  You then heat and weld that joint and as the weld takes you bend the bar farther around the parent bar.  Once you have it almost closed you cut the bar to length and finish the weld.  Clean up and forge to a ball.  The other way is similar to the way you tried it,  but the key is the gap.  It can't be closed to early on in the operation or it will push itself away from the parent bar sheering whatever weld you have made thus far.  I know Mark Aspery covers it pretty well in one of his two books.  Ok just pulled mine off the shelf and looked it would be book 2 chapter 8 and 9.  

[John B]

Form the collar to fit your bar, I prefer to form the collar from square or round forged into a swage to give a D section through the bar, long enough to form the ring to fit around your bar, and when it is a reasonable fit on the bar, then cut through 95% of the way so it is still attached to the parent stock you forged to the D section.

Then place both pieces into the fire and raise to a near welding heat, withdraw from fire and quickly place collar onto bar end, and twist off, leaving it on the end of the bar, quickly replace in fire and bring up to welding heat. Allow the heat to soak right through, and when it is ready (runny, semi molten, slightly sparkling or however you recognise thids heat) then pull it out place in saswage or on anvil face and lghtly weld to start, then replace back in fire and continue to secure it with heavier blows and rotating in one direction, a couple or more heats may be required to consolidate the weld, then forge the finished shape to your requirements, use a hot file if necessary,

It seems you are not getting the whole assembly to temperature before trying to weld it.

I have not mentioned flux because I don't find it necessary to use it.

Patience is required when raising the pieces to welding temperature, if anything the central piece need to be slightly hotter than the collar before putting them together

Alternatively if you don't want to form a D section, use a round bar, and put a lightly fullered groove the same radius as your collar stock, near to the end of bar where the collar fits and then follow the above proceedure.

[Mark Emig]

Try using half round, if you don't have a swage block take a piece of 1/2x1-1/2 or 2 and drive a round rod into it to make one. Mark Aspery has a great description of how to in one of his books. The other main killer is too long a collar-makes it so it'll never weld as there will always be a gap.

[Ken G]

Sounds like my number one mistake was welding the collar / ring closed before trying to weld to the shaft.  I will not do that again.  I do have a half round bottom swage and will try forming a D shape/half round as well. 

Great advise guys!  Thanks for the help. 

Ken  

[Richard Furrer]

Ken,

You have had many good ideas presented to you....do those.

 

Welding heat test:

 Here is simple to test for welding heat by using a thin pointed 1/4" bar as a poker.

Heat the thin taper and gently drag it across the area to be welded (it will gather a flux coating from the metal in the fire or you can dip it in flux prior to heating)...if it is at good heat with low oxidation you will feel the poker stick to the metal.

 

No need to guess nor shield from sunlight nor sparks nor any other contrivances....the metal will let you know via the drag welding of the poker.

 

Ric

[DickyPitts]

Never mind, question already answered when I read further.

[Francis Trez Cole]

with doing a forge weld. clean metal, clean fire, flux, and heat evenly it is better to heat forge heat and forge heat and forge. with your strikes getting harder at the end.