Power Hammer vs Hydraulic Press (first, that is)

[Harris Snyder]

Title says it all, really. Should I be looking for a press or a power hammer as my first assisted smithing tool?

 

Thanks guys

[Jim Coke]

Greetings Harris,

 

You will have to answer a lot of questions before anyone can help you.

 

1. What kind of final product do you plan .  Small.... large...  leaves  flowers    gates   railings    fireplace  ect ect..  ??

 

2.  The age old question..  How much money do you want to spend?

 

3.  Shop space.. ? 

 

4.  Your level of blacksmithing experience ?

 

5  Does the equipment require an air compressor ?

 

  The questions go on  and on and on..   I think if I had only 2 pieces of equipment and had to choose it would be a treadle hammer and a flypress.  As you might expect I have more then one of each and power hammers and presses..

 

 I hope this helps and expect a lot more questions form the guys

 

 

 

Jim

[Frosty]

What do you want to do with it? There's a lot of difference between say drawing may items or say, finely controlled pattern welded billets. Your question is just too vague to expect god answers. It's like asking, What kind of car should I get?

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Timothy Miller]

A power hammer is a more useful machine hands down. 

[Harris Snyder]

Hey guys, thanks for the quick replies. My initial post was too vague, sorry. I'm editing the post to provide a bit more information, the changes should show up in a minute.

EDIT: welllll i don't seem to have permission to edit the original post. Heres the info:

 

I'm mainly thinking about a press for working larger stock. Think sledgehammer sized projects - maybe even a bit bigger. Smaller stuff I like doing by hand, even if its a lot of pounding.

 

In terms of the money, well, this is theoretical at this point. Its something I'm willing to shell out a few grand for in the next, say, 6 months, but I'm in the planning and learning phase at the moment.

 

I've got space for whatever I decide to go with

 

I'm about 1 year into blacksmithing. I can shape some metal, but hardly a master smith. I'm not too good at pretty vines and stuff (nor is that really my interest), I'm more into making hardware, kitchenware, and tools (and better at that).

 

I don't have an air compressor, but since a plasma torch is on the to-get list within a year, I'll be picking a small one up.

 

I have to say, Its interesting that you (Jim) say a treadle hammer and a fly press.... Maybe I'll look into those instead.. Definitely easier on the wallet (could probably make them myself) and might be good enough for the time being...

[yesteryearforge]

How can you SMITE something with a press

[Jim Coke]

Greetings again Harris,

 

From what you say .  I think a treadle hammer would work best for what you want to make...

 

Keep learning and forging        Jim

[Harris Snyder]

Thanks a lot for your recommendation. I'll look into treadle hammers. I was sort of under the impression that they were farily weak, but then again, they're probably as strong as a striker.

[Don Hanson]

I have 3 power hammers and a hydraulic press. The hammers are by far the most versatile tool.

[Harris Snyder]

Seeing a lot of votes for the hammer style (true, its not really smiting with a press). I'm seriously considering a treadle hammer first, though, cause i could make it myself. How do you power hammer fans like treadle hammers for, lets say, sledge hammer head size stuff?

[Stormcrow]

If you have skills to build a successful treadle hammer, you probably have the skills to build a successful power hammer.

 

I have a homebrewed Rusty-style power hammer with a tire clutch and a 100 lb ram.  It forges hammer heads and ax heads pretty well.  I use my hydraulic press to punch the eyes, though.  :)

[K A Willey]

They both serve a purpose and I use both but for MEamd MY situation I tend to use my hammers so much  more and alot more than the press when drawiing thin stock, If I were you find someone that has both and see if they will let you try them out and see which works best for the work YOU do. 

[nuge]

At your level, I would say neither. Too soon to add power as you are still learning to move the metal by hand. If you are going to spend some dollars I would get an induction heater. Heat, man. That's the best first tool, the heat in the material. Without it we got zip. With induction you will have instant heat whenever, no time waiting more time smithing. And you will be always working at yellow colors, the proper temps, your arm immediately gets bigger because of this. Your hand smithing will progress faster and your output will be way higher so you can sell junk to pay for more stuff. You can get into a single phase unit for 3-4 grand, the price of a used hammer. Think about it, that's what I would do.

[brucegodlesky]

when I bought my Fairbanks A, my life changed........ (BOG)

[Harris Snyder]

At your level, I would say neither. Too soon to add power as you are still learning to move the metal by hand. If you are going to spend some dollars I would get an induction heater. Heat, man. That's the best first tool, the heat in the material. Without it we got zip. With induction you will have instant heat whenever, no time waiting more time smithing. And you will be always working at yellow colors, the proper temps, your arm immediately gets bigger because of this. Your hand smithing will progress faster and your output will be way higher so you can sell junk to pay for more stuff. You can get into a single phase unit for 3-4 grand, the price of a used hammer. Think about it, that's what I would do.

 

You make a very good point. In fact, I think you may have me convinced...

[SJS]

Nuge made an EXCELLENT call.  The induction heaters that Grant started importing and Larry (monstermetal) is handling still are a game changer.  Talk about nearly instant gratification;-)  It is definitely on the short list of major purchases, probably after Ken's KZ100 control package to get my lame Bull up and slapping again...  Heat and precise control of where and how much heat are the berries, but you will get spoiled, and limited to  a max of around 1" stock for most things.  But 1" stock is impressive enough for most things.

[Timothy Miller]

I love my induction heater.

[John Larson]

I have watched professionals use hydraulic presses and, of course, power hammers. An hydraulic press can be built according to careful plans available widely. Power hammers are more difficult to build and get right; most any smith can do the fabrication, but getting the drive mechanism for the hammer head is easier said than done. The hydraulic press you can build has far more squishing power than the hammer you can build on the same budget. Because of that I'd start with the press to handle things that are too tedious and difficult to hammer by hand at the anvil. You can always do finer work with hammer and anvil. You can draw tapers and such with an hydraulic press, but they won't be the really smooth ones you can do on a power hammer. With a press, make sure you make where your dies meet the metal very visible without having to bend over to look at your squishing progress. Just my 2 cents.

[rthibeau]

John Larson gives good advice.  Definitely have the working height of the steel in a press up higher so you can look straight at it. Each tool with get you off on a long chase to get/make tooling, jigs, special thingys, and so on.  Money versus time is a major consideration.  You can build a perfectly good hydraulic press AND get a fly press for the same money or close as a power hammer.  I'm not a fan of treadle hammers meself, but they have their place.  Of course, if you can afford it, one of everything is  always the way to go. -_-

[Harris Snyder]

Many replies here contain solid advice. Of course, I'll be wanting all of these things eventually. However, I think that an induction heater honestly is the best thing for me at this stage. I will be looking to buy/make both a hammer and a press. I see the advantages of both, and honestly I'll just build up my own stamina and forge hammer heads and similar sized things by hand (and with a striker). When the time comes to move to power I'll have a more realistic sense of which one I need from the additional experience. Nuge is right, an induction heater would equate to more minutes beating iron, and more experience.

[John Larson]

Harris, please seek a good demonstration of an induction heater before laying out your money. They are not as versatile as you might be thinking.

[youngdylan]

Have you used one for any length of time? They are wonderfully versatile machines.

 

I am a professional smith whose only source of income is the work I design and make. Time is EVERYTHING to me. I make a wide and diverse range of bespoke metalwork and have to be both productive and creative to compete in today's market. I forge plenty of tooling and fixtures to make my work and rarely use my coke forge and only occasionally use my gas forges. A quick peek at my website will show you I do large-ish work

 

My induction heater is the 25kVA machine and is used for over 90% of my work and gives me a massive commercial advantage, This in terms of what it can do that the other forges can't, it's speed and the huge cost saving in fuel. It is also such much nicer going home without being drenched in sweat that collects in bucket loads in my boots after a day at the gas forge. It is also a MUCH more efficient and greener way of heating steel and I'm not breathing all the nasties from burning coke. It's wonderfully having an idea and being able to try it out with a flick of a switch and a few minutes wait rather than all the palava of lighting a coal forge or waiting for it or a gasser to get up to heat

 

I've had my machine for about 3 years and it's paid for it'self many times over. I don't sell induction heaters but can absolutely testify how versatile they are with direct experience. I love mine so much I'm seriously thinking of buying a bigger 35KVA machine, both as a back up machine and for faster heating.

 

Having said the above I would say get a power hammer first (I've got four and still want another) if you are earning your living from smithing (and have a suitable workshop), followed closely by the biggest induction heater you can get; once you use them you modify your work flow and realise just how versatile they are. A press would be a distant third to me but still indispensable.

[nuge]

Harris, please seek a good demonstration of an induction heater before laying out your money. They are not as versatile as you might be thinking.

How so? 

 

My advice stemmed from the fact that this guy said he liked hand forging.  So do I, well I used to anyway.  Now I reach for the smallest hammer possible but I put in a lotta years w/o any other help.  Also, I am a bit altruistic in the belief that just because you can add more power doesn't mean you should.  At the early stages, that might be tad offensive to the material.  Get to know her a bit.  

[Harris Snyder]

From a theoretical standpoint, I'm very familiar with how induction heaters work (midway through a physics degree right now), and I'm aware of their limitations. From a practical standpoint, I'm sure I'll learn new quirks associated with them, but I'm not overly worried about having false expectations. Of course, I started this thread asking about larger objects, which ironically an induction heater might not be suited for! That's alright though, I'll just use gas or charcoal for that stuff for now. The "heat faster, hit more, get stronger" attitude definitely appeals to me, I like the idea of doing bigger stuff by hand as well. Of course I'll get power eventually, just not this year maybe. I'm 22 and healthy, so hopefully I can get away with this approach for a few years.

 

Thanks guys

[John Larson]

I own a single phase 220 volt induction heater acquired from the late Grant Sarver.  It useful when the work piece and the copper tubing coil are properly matched.  I've formed an opinion that induction heaters are very good for heating a sequence of the same thing.  Everything I've studied and certainly everything I've done with mine support this notion.  When the air gap between the coil and the work piece gets too large heating efficiency is poor.  That is why it is difficult to use an induction heater for general purpose work where the coils and work pieces vary substantially.  That is why I urged Harris to observe a unit in action with an informed demonstrator.  He will either think his projects work or don't work with induction heating.