Fencing Foils

[OttoFencing]

Hi everyone,

 

I'm really barely a blacksmith-- I spent about a year learning the ropes, I suppose, but I've never made anything extensive or special. I'm also a college student, so I don't really have access to a forge or equipment. So keep in mind this question is purely academic and out of curiosities sake.

 

I also happen to be an avid fencer. I've fenced for about 6 years, and am only now getting into the competitive part of the scene (after taking a break, so it's been a little rough to get back into the swing of things).

 

My question is, would it be possible to forge a fencing foil using "conventional" blacksmithing tools? And if possible, how would one go about this? (I don't know much about blacksmithing as I said, but I'm thinking along the lines of all the stuff you'd normally find in a shop, and maybe a couple extra power tools: forge, anvil, annealing/tempering oven, cooling tank, vice, tongs, belt sander, hammers, etc etc etc). I've provided some links down below with information on fencing foils, but here's some general information (and why I think this would be nigh immpossible): The blade of a foil is extremely flexible and and can withstand being bent without breaking for a really, really long time. These blades are pretty insane. You can bend a new one in a circle and it'll spring right back-- bend an old one and it'll have some curve in it if you bend it, but you can straighten that out. The main point is these very rarely break, and if they do it's either because of 1) Extensive use/misuse or 2) The blade had defects.

 

Again, if you tell me it's possible I'm not going to go out and try to do it. I'm just curious if it is possible, and if so, what the process would roughly be.

 

Wikipedia article on fencing foils-- this mentions that international competition blades must be made from maraging steel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(fencing)

 

This video is from the London Olympics-- click around anywhere and watch for all of 30 seconds to see just how flexible these blades are. Keep in mind that this is obviously top of the line stuff though: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgJy92YFWDw

 

If you need any more info I'd be happy to provide, and thanks very much in advance! :)

[Glenn]

Start here

http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/143-knife-making-classes/

 

Learn the basics of blacksmithing, then make several knives before you move into a specialty weapon.

[Hilt and Hammer Workshop]

 If my understanding is correct,you aren't desiring to neccesarily make a blade,you are just interested in if it's possible. I've been involved in classical and historical fencing for eight years now,in addition to having an addiction to making blades. I don't like to assert my opinion in a absolute manner on these sorts of things ,but it is my belief that the short answer is no. Not the type of blade you are refering to. Yes, classic fencing foils were and have been made individually by blacksmiths ,as they were in use well before the 2oth century. However,that is a different blade than what you're asking about,as far as I can tell.What is used today in the Olympic sport fencing world is barely what I would deem to be a blade in the first place. It's so extremely thin and flexible ,forging one out would be close to impossible. The tempering is insane,and I'm sure the blade manufactures are using an extremely specific alloy for the product. With the "common" tools of your everyday blacksmith,it just isn't something that could be done .

[Steve Sells]

there is a thread in this sword section about foils and manufacturing processes, and why we cant use the ones we make in any competition. If you are researching this for class you should read through them. I am supprised you are researching any weapon in todays climate.

 

Good luck on your paper.

[Rich Hale]

Actually when life allows you time to get more involved in smithing I believe you will find you own thoughts on this.

[jcornell]

I did fencing for a few years with my son when he was in High School.  Look up the specifications for international competition foils.  The heat-treating involved would require a real heat-treating shop, not what a hobby blacksmith has in his/her garage or back yard.  Could you make the foil?  Yes.  It would then require professional heat-treating that complies with the specification and some extensive testing before it would qualify for competition.  Possible, yes.  Cost effective, no.

[Steve Sells]

it may supprise you what some of us are  doing in our shops. for many  that require long soak times it is more practicle to hire it out, as 15 hours for some steels is hard to stay awake to watch. Most of the regulations on manucacture of foils is insurance companies and liability.

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Otto, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in your header you may be pleasantly surprised to find out how many IFI members live within visiting distance.

 

And, NO you're not going to be able to forge acceptable fencing blades in a home shop. Sure you can forge "real" swords but not fencing blades. Fencing blades are intended to NOT injure or kill the opponent, they're blunted, have safety tips and break in such a way as to NOT be sharp.

 

Don't sweat it, you aren't the first person to ask the question, as Steve and others have already said there are threads on the subject to read at your leasure. We've talked about it a lot, it's an enjoyable subject.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[rockstar.esq]

Beyond the fear of liability I'd suggest it's difficult to get the balance right.  That and the midpoint where you can apply force to parry.  Lots of sensitive tradeoffs for the maker to get just so.  The foils used for competition had wiring and push-button tips.  The wiring method was simply terrible across the board.  There's lots of room for improvement in the design but it would involve all the governing bodies of the sport which may explaing why the lowest common denominator is the only acceptable option.

 

As far as "today's climate" and the idea that "weapons research" pertaining to fencing is risky, I think halting your inquiry would be capitulating to histrionics.  Let them clutch pearls- you're asking about an Olympic sport, a classical study, and ancient history.  We should expect people to be reasonable and and should lead by example whenever opportunity presents.

[Francis Trez Cole]

It is a good question. Yes you can make them with the right skill set.  With practice blades in the $15 range and competition blades around $100. it is hardly worth the time and money to make your own. As you go through your journey in to blacksmithing. There will be things you will want and you just never get around to make them. Then other things will spark your intrest and you will find yourself going in a more productive direction. A friend makes swords with great bronze fittings. all his equipment is specialized to the process. You can go any direction you mind takes you.   

[jason0012]

I forged one years ago. I used plain HRS and no heat treat. It got kinda knarley  and had to be straightened often but on a hit would stay bent which was kind of cool.

[Steve Sells]

As far as "today's climate" and the idea that "weapons research" pertaining to fencing is risky, I think halting your inquiry would be capitulating to histrionics.  Let them clutch pearls- you're asking about an Olympic sport, a classical study, and ancient history.  We should expect people to be reasonable and and should lead by example whenever opportunity presents.

I was referring to the fact students are being expelled from schools  here is the USA for even having Photos of weapons now.  I am not just talking grade schools or High schools, a college in Florida is involved in a court case for them expelling a student for a having a weapons phone app.

[rockstar.esq]

Steve,

 

Sadly, you have some sound examples of the deplorable state of schools in the U.S.  I maintain that the administrators acting in this fashion are forwarding an agenda - it's hard to believe they genuinely lack basic judgement.  However either case is equally offensive to reason and justice.  Giving ground to fanaticism and/or lunacy is a common preamble to tragedy.  Again, I prefer to see reasonable peopole leading by example.  Not that it's always successful, fair, or easy.