Harris Snyder Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Hello everyone. I've done some blacksmithing, some machining, and some propane brazing, but it looks like it's time for me to get a rig that can weld. The trouble is I have no 220 V outlet available, so I'm limited to either 110 V or oxyfuel. Either way, I'll take a safety course once I decide which way to go, but I'd be curious to hear from those who have experience which of these two methods would be better. I can't really predict 100% of what I'll want to do, so I'd say the more versatile the better. I'd like to be able to weld stainless as well ( I can't remember if oxyfuel can do that ). Right now oxy/fuel is looking more appealing because there's the added benefit of being able to cut and braze. However, there don't seem to be a lot of guys welding with oxy/fuel these days, and I'm not clear as to why. Unfortunately I don't have the budget for both, so I figured I'd get some advice from you guys. Thanks a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLMartin Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 I do not think you can weld Stainless Steel with OXY/ACT. But you can solder stainless steel. Some people still weld with OXY/ACT but most people doing that are doing restoration or body work for old cars. I guess some one could weld something 1/2 thick with OXY/ACT but I think it would be wasteful of gas and need a very large torch. Now welding 3/16 plate say in a outside corner joint should be a simple operation. Welding steel metal 1/16 thick is also a common practice with OXY/ACT. Cutting with OXY/ACT is handy but you can not cut Stainless Steel, Aluminum, Brass/copper/bronze, or most other exotic alloys. Generally you can only cut simple steels. OXY/ACT is a very well used rig in most full time blacksmith shops. It is wonderful for bending and local heats for forging, riveting. A welder that is restricted to only 110V is pretty small. I would not regularly try and weld something 3/16 or thicker with one. It can be done but is a poor option. You can not heat or braze with a arc welder. You can weld Stainless steel and maybe Aluminum depending if your welder has alternating current. For the most versatile in a forging shop I would chose a OXY/ACT If you are doing more fabrication work and want some versatility I would look into a good Arc welder, preferably a constant current machine (stick welder) with TIG welding option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 I think you answered your own question. If you don't have a oxy/ fuel set up in your shop, it is one of the first and most versital pieces of equipment to have. I know alot of people who still weld and braze with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harris Snyder Posted March 16, 2013 Author Share Posted March 16, 2013 Yeah okay. I guess since its such a versatile solution, and you CAN weld with it, it sounds like i'll be going with oxy fuel. Thanks very much guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 getting someone to install a 240V outlet is not that hard or expencive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 It all depends on what you need it for. If you need the heat then a torch will do, welding however isn't the easiest to do. You might look into a 110v mig. I have one and use it nearly every day, the torch once every two weeks maybe ( I use the forge for heat now). For cutting a side grinder with a slicer disk works very well on thinner stuff and short cuts. With the mig you can use gas (75/25 or CO2) or gassless flux cored wire. The gas gives the best looking weld the flux cored burns dirty but will increase the penitration of the weld. Get a good one, Miller, Hobart or Lincoln as these machines are only as good as the availabilaty of the consumables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciladog Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 A welder that is restricted to only 110V is pretty small. I would not regularly try and weld something 3/16 or thicker with one. It can be done but is a poor option. You can not heat or braze with a arc welder. You can weld Stainless steel and maybe Aluminum depending if your welder has alternating current. There are lots of good MIG welders that will easily weld 3/16 material on 120 volts. And you can weld thicker material with multi passes if you have the knowledge and the technique. Some will allow you to weld stainless and aluminium with a spool gun. You can also heat and braze using a stick welder with a carbon arch torch. My very first welder was a 120 Volt buzz box and I built all sorts of things with it. It's max was 100 Amps AC. I still have it and use it as a portable because it is a small unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLMartin Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 There are lots of good MIG welders that will easily weld 3/16 material on 120 volts. And you can weld thicker material with multi passes if you have the knowledge and the technique. Some will allow you to weld stainless and aluminium with a spool gun. You can also heat and braze using a stick welder with a carbon arch torch. My very first welder was a 120 Volt buzz box and I built all sorts of things with it. It's max was 100 Amps AC. I still have it and use it as a portable because it is a small unit. Just because it can do something dose not mean that those little welders are build to handle welding material that large for extended periods. The manufactures recommendations for such welders is a very low duty cycle. Yes I know carbon arch torches can heat, Beyond cutting with a carbon torch. I did not think these things were even in circulation any more. I asked about brazing with carbon arch at the local welding supply and the employee behind the counter just laughed at me and told me no one used such things anymore. I know that things can be built with 110V, I have been restricted to such use many times working while traveling. I have welders that can handle the lower volt/amps. The low input is a large step down from 220V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 You can weld stainless and aluminum with ox/ace. I have a Cobra torch and you can do a good job. The aluminum welds you will need a blue lens so you can see the puddle and when welding stainless you have to keep the seconary cone visible. This provides a shelding gas. If the secondary cone is not visible the stainless will crumble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EtownAndrew Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 I think you should go for the electric welder! I first got a small oxy/accy torch set and really couldn't do much welding with it. I needed bigger tanks and bigger tips and my small tanks ran out fast. It's biggest use has been for cutting thicker material. (I have ended up using a $10 angle grinder to do most of my stock cutting.) Then I got a 220V 225A stick welder. I did want to get one that would be big enough for anything that I would possibly want to do. However, I have never yet needed or wanted to go more than 120 Amps and have welded 1/2" plate just fine. I do most of my welding at the 40A, 60, 75, and 90Amp settings for welding 14 gage up through 1/8" material. At around 1/4" material I am at 90 or 120 Amps. I could have done all of my welding with a 110V AC welder like the one on the following link. http://www.harborfreight.com/welding/arc-welders/80-amp-inverter-arc-welder-91110.html http://www.harborfreight.com/welding/mig-flux-welders/90-amp-flux-wire-welder-68887-8494.html If you can find a 110V one I suggest you get a gas MIG welder. Getting the slag out from a stick welder can often be difficult. Also I occasionally think I have got a great weld and then when I break off the covering slag I see that my weld has all gone to only one of the two pieces I was trying to join. The slag can cover up what you are doing. Further it is easier to weld thin sheet metal with a MIG. I has struggled with burn through on 14 ga material that should not be such a problem with a MIG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knots Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 getting someone to install a 240V outlet is not that hard or expencive Or make (or buy) an extension cord to take power from the wifes electric drier out let. I welded with that provision for years before getting a propper shop with 220 v power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciladog Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Just because it can do something dose not mean that those little welders are build to handle welding material that large for extended periods. The manufactures recommendations for such welders is a very low duty cycle. Yes I know carbon arch torches can heat, Beyond cutting with a carbon torch. I did not think these things were even in circulation any more. I asked about brazing with carbon arch at the local welding supply and the employee behind the counter just laughed at me and told me no one used such things anymore. I know that things can be built with 110V, I have been restricted to such use many times working while traveling. I have welders that can handle the lower volt/amps. The low input is a large step down from 220V I didn't say anything about duty cycle only about the ability to weld 3/16 material with a 120 volt machine. What you say about duty is ture. 120 volt machines usually have a 20% cycle. However, if you look at the specifications of the machines available such as Miller or Lincoln, their dual voltage machines (120-240) only increase 10% on the higher voltage. All of the machines are rated to weld 3/16 in a single pass. So unless you are in the welding business and that is all you do all day long, a 20% duty will work for most people. I have a Millermatic 135 with a 20% duty cycle and I push that machine hard, I don't pay attention to how long I weld continuously and it has never overheated. I don't know anyone that watches the clock when welding. The carbon arch torch I'm speaking of is a two electrode torch. So maybe your welding supply guy is too young to know about it. :unsure: They still sell the carbon electrodes. I don't think anyone would choose to use one if they also had an O/A setup. But I have used mine on occasion when I run out of gas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aljeter Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Like others have said get a mig welder, but get a good one Lincoln, Miller, or Hobart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harris Snyder Posted March 17, 2013 Author Share Posted March 17, 2013 quite a variety of opinions it seems.... To be honest, I will mostly be welding sheet metal, angle iron, etc., plus damascus billets for forging and whatnot. I have a small venturi effect gas/air torch which can run propane or MAP/Pro. Do you guys think that could be an acceptable heating and brazing solution? That way I could go with an electric (either 110V or just go for a XXXXXXXX 220V and make a massive extension cord.... Can you cut with a MIG welder? I know nothing about it - like I said I need to take a crash course... If I can cut with mig, and if MAP/Pro will suit my heating needs, then I'll go electric to avoid the hassle of acetylene. Otherwise, I'll be going oxyacetylene. Thanks guys EDIT: Well I hooked up a cynlinder of that MAP/Pro stuff from bernzomatic to my torch and had a go at getting brazing rod to stick to the end of 3/8 stock. It happened, but it took a while. Definitely not ideal, though I suppose it's fine for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knots Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Personally i do not and never have liked flame cutting. I have kept a oxy acetylene welding torch in my shop for many years. I also own a plazma torch but seldom use either for cutting. I just do not like dealing with finishing flame cuts. That is except for cutting up scrap. So torch cutting is not something I use much. There are many other cleaner and more useful means of cutting metal than with a torch. To many to cover here but for a small sparsley furnished shop you might look at a good quality saber saw equipped with a metal cutting blade. A cheap beverly shear rip off from HF would be very useful for sheet metal. Abbrasive cut off saws are a staple for many small shops. There are even metal cutting blades that can be used in a hand held power saw available today. Then there is a world full of high quality new and used metal cutting equipment to aspire to own. A mig welder on the other hand is a basic tool that will open new doors of oportunity. They require little skill to make good quality welds within their claimed material thickness range. By using a copper back up heat sink behind thin sheet metal joints, these joints can be welded easily using .023 wire ( avoid galvanized sheet metal). Or if needed thicker metal can be welded in a pinch, with preparation . These are operations which require much more skill and heat ( which creates warpage) when using OA. IMO, the OA set is most useful for heating iron to bend, twist and and form where a forge is not practical. If you are doing a lot of twisty, bendy things that cannot be put back into a forge then an OA set will be indispensable part of your kit . If you want to weld things fast and easy get a mig. If you want to make welds the traditional way learn to forge weld. The nature of your work is not clearly described so I cannot know what is of most importance to you. However I am a believer that MIG is a basic piece of equipment for any metal working shop where iron is being fabricated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harris Snyder Posted March 17, 2013 Author Share Posted March 17, 2013 The nature of my "work" is that blacksmithing is a serious hobby. Sometimes it's easier to make stuff out of angle iron and welded rods/sheet as opposed to forging and forge welding some large awkward shape that doesn't really fit in a forge. I've just come across enough situations where welding would "really make this easier" that I've decided to throw in the towel and learn to weld. I've made do with what I've got up to this point. A very nice electric MIG welder isn't within my budget right now, but I could get a decent stick welder and make an extension cord for the dryer outlet if I had to (though I'd still prefer to go 110V). Like I said, I'm mostly going to be welding sheet, joining bars, and welding billets for pattern-welding in the forge, at least for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 With the lower powered welders you can increase the range by preheating to 400 degrees. Actually you will want both. Everyone is different and you will have to decide which you need first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knots Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 hsnyder - Understood . Welding sheet metal with a stick welder may be a bit more difficult than you expect. But there are a couple of things that will help with that and other welding proceedures. First get an auto darkening welding hood. When welding thin materials that want to burn through find a piece of copper plate to place below the weld to act as a heat sink. Weld with dry electrodes. My rod drier is a 1 gallon bucket with a 75 - 100 Watt light bulb mounted inside bottom of the can . Place the rods inside the can with the light on and then put another slightly larger can over the paint can. Let them cook for a couple of hours before use. The pros will find this contraption little better than a joke but even a semi dry rod welds smoother than a rod at ambient moisture content. If at all possible purchase an AC/DC welder. My first welder was a Sears AC/DC buzz box that I got back in the late 70's. Sometimes the welding polarity really makes a difference. Research that. These machines have been around a long time so you may be able to find a used one. Used buzz box welders seem to go real cheap in Craigs list. Maybe ciladog's carbon arc torch would offer more control for welding thin metal ? I have never used one so maybe someone with experience could chime in. Good Luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harris Snyder Posted March 18, 2013 Author Share Posted March 18, 2013 Well, if we're talking really thin materials, I also have a 110 V spot welder I can use. Also, I can probably braze really thin metals with a MAP air torch, so that may not be as big a deal. If I were doing something thicker like 1/8th inch or so (too thick for the spot welder to be a good bet) then I'd expect a stick welder would be okay. I'm actually quite interested in this carbon arc torch idea as well, since it's essentially a less accurate acetylene torch for heating and brazing, but runs off a stick welder. That would mean no gas to worry about, and no regulators, flashback arrestors, etc; and reduced risk of spectacular death (though acetylene rigs are pretty safe these days). I think I might actually go with a stick welder. AC/DC if I can afford, but I may just get a good old lincoln AC-225 and run it off the dryer via an extension cord. I think decent MIG and probably AC/DC stick are out of my price range at the moment. I may someday upgrade, but then again, I'm a blacksmith, not a welder. Thanks guys for your help, I really apreciate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuge Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 If you learn to gas weld, the electric process' will come easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knots Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 If you learn to gas weld, the electric process' will come easy. Very true. However In hsnyder's case money seems to be a barrier to making the easy choices. One point not discussed is the cost of an OA welding set up and refills of the tanks. I rent my tanks at a cost of close to $200 a year. Buying in the long run is cheaper but the larger sizes are generally not for sale and small tank refils get to be expensive if you are really doing some welding. A decent torch set is not cheap so OA welding is not economical to maintain and use for welding. An arc welder OTOH can be puchased on Craig's list for $150. A stick welder is basically plug and play. For a tight budget you can't beat that option. There is one other option that I have never tried that may be a decent choice for someone on a budget that needs to weld up small and uncomplicated things. For a little weld here and there what about a flux core wire welder ? Could that be a decent option ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harris Snyder Posted March 18, 2013 Author Share Posted March 18, 2013 Its not so much that money is a huge barrier, more like I don't wanna spend a lot on something I can't totally justify. I don't need a super fancy mig or tig welder, just cause welding isn't going to be the biggest part of what I do. An O/A rig is a bit more versatile and I'd be willing to cough up a little more for it (it's versatility is also why I initially was leaning in that direction). However, it sounds like with a carbon arc torch plus with the stuff I've already got, a stick welder adds up to a solution versatile enough for my purposes, with the added benefit of not dealing with gas. Flux core wire welder? I'm sure that'd be fine, but what's wrong with a regular stick welder? Other than difficulty? I'm patient enough that I think I'll be able to learn how to do it well enough for my purposes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knots Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Flux core wire welder? I'm sure that'd be fine, but what's wrong with a regular stick welder? Other than difficulty? I'm patient enough that I think I'll be able to learn how to do it well enough for my purposes. Flux core welder ? That was a question for others on the forum who might have had experience with them. Just asking for information that might have been helpful. Nothing wrong with a stick welder other than for delicate welds it will require a lot of clean up grinding. Basically a good first choice with a broad range of capability. When you get a chance show us some of your work. Good Luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuge Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Put it this way, a gas setup will - Heat big sections with a rosebud heat localized sections to set a rivet or do a tight bend, wrap, etc,etc weld braze solder cut preheat for welding tool steel heat for applying waxed finishes or patinas anneal non ferrous metal work anywhere there's no power or if the power goes out draw a temper for punches and such thaw your pipes in the winter an arc welder will weld Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harris Snyder Posted March 18, 2013 Author Share Posted March 18, 2013 Soldering, heating, annealing, tempering, pipes, etc are already covered by either the forge, the small torch I have, or other equipment. And it looks like brazing can be done with arc torches. At this point, thanks to the expertise on this forum, it looks to me like I can go with either solution and not be severely lacking anything. The two approaches just have different strengths and weaknesses. It looks to me like, for WELDING (the job for which I want a welding rig), the electric side of things has the vote. I'm sure brazing with an arc torch isn't ideal, but I really don't braze that much - the brazing I've done has been done because I lack a welding rig. Thank you all for your input, I'll probably go whichever direction pops up on craigslist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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