shralp Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 So I stopped lurking and registered to get the community's thoughts on this video:Video link was removed for safety issues (he pops open a beer as he starts talking), language issues (the video does fit the family forum guide lines), and advertising (he wants you to buy his products via the video). Then there is the part about making you an immediate blacksmith just by building his style forge. Short version: "Modern Blacksmith" suggests using a propane weed burner and a roll of Kaowool in a coffee can to build a small gas forge. Have any of you ever tried this and/or have insights into the short-comings? I'm looking to build my first forge, and this might be a good way to go -- I just don't know enough about gas forges (or any forges) to see what the problems will be. I've looked into a few others like the Reil/EZ Burner, but I don't have the metalworking tools to flare a nozzle or make compound cuts in sheet metal. The Zoeller one looks possible, but I still don't quite understand the burner assembly. In the above design, wouldn't the end of the weed burner burn or melt by the time that the forge reached a decent working temperature? Thoughts and input appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 The safety issues, (popping a beer as he starts the video), and dismissing the dangers of zinc being flared off the galvanized stove pipe he is using as the forge housing, are enough to throw shadows on the rest of the content of the video. Find a fuel that is abundant in your area of VA, coal gas etc. Build the forge to use that fuel. The site has a section on forges. Most types of forges have been discussed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shralp Posted November 13, 2012 Author Share Posted November 13, 2012 Yeah, and doing so as he tells the story of a smith who died that way was...perplexing. Yes, I've looked into fuels and searched the forge fora. I was hoping for some insights into that particular design, which I have not seen discussed. Granted, I may habe missed it in the plethora of topics. If what you really mean is "go away because this site is for experienced smiths" then just say so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Good Morning, Don't run before you can walk. Take some regular fire-brick (Don't start with the high temperature bricks, start with something that is laying around a brick mason's place), make a floor with the brick (ie, lay 8 fire bricks on their side, on top of something not flammable, maybe expanded metal), make two walls far enough apart 1 or 2 bricks long so more fire-brick will go over the walls to form the ceiling/roof. Cut a corner out of one side brick to allow your forge burner to go in (it doesn't have to go through to the inside of the wall. It is better if it doesn't sit inside the fire-box area. It doesn't have to have a flare). Stand 2 fire-bricks on end for the back side (door), Use some broken fire-brick to act as doors for the front. You don't want to seal it tight, you have to allow someplace for the flame pressure to go. Open the front doors and the back doors before you start the flame. Use a piece of newspaper or a bar-be-que lighter that has a flame. Start the flame or light the newspaper before you turn the gas on, STAND TO THE SIDE!! Turn the gas on slowly and adjust your regulator (don't use a pet-cock!! Use an adjustable Propane or Acetylene regulator. You may have to try different jets in your burner. Start with the gas about 5-10psi. Pay Attention to what works and what doesn't work!! You can adjust this forge up or longer, to suit your needs. Start Simple, make your own tools. Find someone near you that you can ask questions. ASK LOTS OF QUESTIONS AND LISTEN WITH YOUR MOUTH SHUT!!! There are lots of books available. I use 'the Blacksmith's Primer' by Randy McDaniel. Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newbieforge Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Hi shralp, Welcome to the site. You may find Larry Zoeller's work on gas forges interesting and useful: http://zoellerforge.com/miniforge.html There are also a other excellent pages on forge and burner construction, for example: https://sites.google.com/site/ejuribe/forge http://ronreil.abana.org/shepherd.html Here is a page that explains how to make a Ron Reil style burner: http://metalcast.boorman.us/reil_1.html The Ron Reil burners are excellent and cost efficient, if you don't feel like paying nearly $200 for one of the T-Rex burners available from http://www.hybridburners.com. The T-Rex burners are reportedly very very good, but the quality will cost you. There are other DIY burner designs out there, including the T-burner by Frosty (a member on this site). I am having great success and fun with the Reil style burners explained at that last link above. You'll notice that all these gas forges have something in common with Modern Blacksmith's forge. They are basically a cylindrical body, with one of the ends capped off, with the burner(s) pointing into it. Another useful style of forge is the "pile of bricks" which is pretty aptly described by the name. http://www.jamesriser.com/Machinery/GasForge/PropaneForge.html Personally, I wouldn't use Modern Blacksmith's design to make a forge that I wanted to use more than once or twice. However, I recently bought a 220lb anvil with a squished horn tip, and I may use something like Modern Blacksmith's "tube forge" to heat up the horn, and fix the shape. His idea is basically functional; his choice of materials a bit suboptimal. The gas forge I built myself is made from a section of 100lbs propane tank. The metal shell is about 1/8" thick, it has 4 burners, and 2 layers of 1" Kaowool liner. I built it by following the info on Ron Reil's web site: http://ronreil.abana.org/Forge1.shtml You can easily start experimenting with forges if you buy a box of 1" thick 8lb Kaowool (it may run you around $100), and enough plumbing parts and gas hardware to build one or two Reil style burners (probably another $25-40 per burner, plus $30-50 for the "red hat" propane regulator). Once you get a pair of working burners, and some insulating material, you will be in a position to try out all kinds of ideas for forge shapes, before deciding on one that you will build into a more permanent state. Having a cheap flux core or MIG welder also helps a lot. If you want to buy a ready-made gas forge, that is possible (e.g. from Chile Forge) but it is costlier, and in my opinion, not nearly as interesting as building one yourself. Building blacksmith gear is a process that takes time. This site is definitely for new people, not just experienced smiths. Don't take the reaction to your video too personally. People here tend to err on the side of too much caution, rather than having someone get hurt by trying something risky that they saw on this site. It's as simple as that, and you can find other such examples in the forum if you look. Welcome & best of success Markus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shralp Posted November 15, 2012 Author Share Posted November 15, 2012 Thanks for the good replies. I'll do some more research on the links you provided. I think my problem is that I just don't understand how a forge that can heat steel to a working temperature is not also destroying the propane burners. But I'll read up on that too. Again, thanks for the links and responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Evers Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Thanks for the good replies. I'll do some more research on the links you provided. I think my problem is that I just don't understand how a forge that can heat steel to a working temperature is not also destroying the propane burners. But I'll read up on that too. Again, thanks for the links and responses. A quick answer would be that, max temps are reached out in the flame zone, not at the orifice tip. O/A cutting and welding tips easily melt steel, but are made of brass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Weed burners are often suggested in non-blacksmithing sites as they seem to think a propane burner is difficult to build. If you think this too; build a blown burner as they are dead simple to make. The major issue with weed burners is that they tend to make a very oxidizing forge and so particularly bad for doing small or thin stuff due to scaling or blades due to decarburization. Even worse most of them are not designed to allow for choking of them to modify the burn to be more neutral or reducing. For smithing you really want a tunable system! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Burners are easy to build from plumbing parts with common tools. No need to use a weed burner. Weed burners also move a lot of air, which is not good for heating steel (forms excess scale), but pretty handy for lighting the brush pile into a bonfire. A properly built burner in a properly built forge cavity will have the fire occuring inside the insulated cavity, the pipe is just carying cold air and fuel. Enjoy the reading, lots to learn from those links! Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shralp Posted November 16, 2012 Author Share Posted November 16, 2012 Enjoy the reading, lots to learn from those links!No kidding! I found a couple of good ones that gave me a better idea of what the burner should look like and how it functions. Lots of insights on Reil's site, but man is it hard to find your way around it.I should be picking up my great-grandfather's anvil over Christmas and hammering away come January. He was the country road commissioner in rural Illinois, so he planned roads -- then went out and built them himself!</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son_of_bluegrass Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 Since you're just starting, may I suggest you look on the ABANA (Artist Blacksmith Assn. of North America) site for a close affiliate. There area few in that general part of the world. Go to a meeting and meet some people, you'll likely find a wealth of information that will take years off the learning curve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 Welcome! This site is NOT just for experienced smiths, but we DO want you to survive the experience! There is a not-so fine line between 'get-er-done', and 'get dead or dismembered'. That is why we care enough to try to redirect you to known, reputable sites, without fear of libel suits for calling the rest the vile names they so **richly** deserve. The moderation here is done for your protection as much as the moderators and owner. The best thing about the internet is that anybody can post anything on any subject. The worst thing about the internet is that anybody can post anything as if they were an expert on the subject. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and all that. Youtube alone gets dozens of hours of unsupervised uploads every minute, and only deletes individual things if they get complaints. The trouble is sorting out the flecks of gold from the mountains of....er, ah, dirt. (Yeah, that's what I wanted to say!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shralp Posted November 18, 2012 Author Share Posted November 18, 2012 Yep.. As someone who spends a lot of time on gun forums, I sympathize. Yep, I've found the local abana chapter and will be pestering them in no time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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