01tundra Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 I've decided to free up some of my existing shop space and move all my forging tools into a new building across the driveway. Since space is unfortunately tight on our lot, this is the max size I can squeeze in, but since my main shop is only a few steps away it should work out OK for me. Going to build it similar to a pole barn with vertical wood siding and a tin roof. Planning on piping my small wood buring stove into the main forge hood flue to be able to have heat when the forge isn't fired up. I'm starting to collect building materials, hope to find some barn wood siding locally that I can reuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Give some thought to using metal for the walls too; great peace of mind knowing that there is limited things that can burn in the shop---Perhaps a wood wall on the side facing the driveway/house and the rest metal? Also shared flues usually don't work as well as separate ones unless you have the capacity to totally shut one side off from the other. Otherwise when you are only using one side the flue is still pulling cold air off the other side decreasing the chimney's draw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01tundra Posted October 9, 2012 Author Share Posted October 9, 2012 Thanks, good info. So I would have to install a 6" and 12" flue dampers prior to them joining to make it operate correctly? I was just hoping to finally have a home for the little Vogelzang stove I got as a Christmas present last year. I agree with the metal siding idea, it's just hard to convince the boss on that one since it will be seen on three sides where it's going to be built. I could though make the side that the forge & hood will be on all tin, that may be a good option since that's where most of the hot stuff will be and it's the only side that can't been seen from the house or road. Not to mention that reclaimed barn wood is obscenely priced around here.......... May be able to sell the back wall as metal too......heck, that's a 50/50 sacrfice and marriages are supposed to be all about meeting in the middle, so I think this would be a fair approach :D ! I guess another option would be to tin all four sides and then go over the front and road side with barn wood. That way the interior would be all metal. It would cost more up front, but not near as much as replacing a burned down building and tools........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 In a appx 12' sq building hot iron can go pretty much *anywhere*. I've had cut off pieces travel more than 20'---so much so that it's part of my teaching spiel to warn new smiths about that! The lined wall sounds like a sound idea as it will cut down on sound yet still be more fire resistant. Can you source steel panels that have been damaged by hail and replaced? My shop extension walls were a co-worker's roof that was hailed on and replaced. I got them for free and they cover about 50' long by 10' high. (My shop is on the "unused" side of the house---only 2 windows and one of them is in my study and so the 20'x30'shop is currently 4 shades of blue. The roofing is new overrun from repairs to school buildings after the massive hail storm---2 shades and then the walls are the aforementioned roof that was replaced and finally the roll up door is the fourth shade of blue it was from a storage complex that replaced their doors regularly and I got a used one cheap. So the covering for the shop extension, 20' wide by 30' long, 10' high wall and peaked roof cost me a total of US$100 and that was for the 2 doors a 10' wide roll up door and a 36" wide commercial exterior door (came from my church. We had to replace it when we fixed a foundation issue and I bought it for a donation) Now that doesn't count the cost of the self drilling self tapping sheetmetal screws or the purlins, but just the sheathing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Looks like it will be a winner! I'd love to have a stand-alone smithy like that and will be sure to watch your progress. The inside walls can be lined with tin or cement board/drywall to prevent fires. Fireproof insulation between the inside and outside wouldn't hurt, either. The only thing I see that I don't like is the 4' of porch roof. Four feet isn't worth doing, in my opinion. It won't keep out much sun in the summer, and wind/rain will not be hindered in the least so you can't reasonably store materials under the shelter or work under it during inclement periods unless you're on the lee side of the building. I'd go with at least 6' of overhang on one side, if not both. More is better up to a point. Maybe have 10' of roof extension off of the front, over the doors, that continues the lines of the roof so you'd have an outside "picnic" area for the family to bbq out of the sun's rays.... and, conveniently, a place where you could do some work in the worst of weather. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01tundra Posted October 10, 2012 Author Share Posted October 10, 2012 Thanks. Yeah I definitely agree on the roof overhangs not really being far enough out, the problem is that much further and the supports would be too far out into my driveway. I'm hoping to be able to push the smithy back a little further, so this would be worst case. Thomas - Great idea on finding used tin, we have our share of hail storms and since I'll be covering over the tin it doesn't really matter what it looks like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 You might welcome 12 ft walls and a little more headroom if you get the luxury of a striker. I like the idea of a front overhang better than the small awnings. Make it big and sell it to the wife as a "carport" and keep it clear to park a car under it for the winter. Having the bulk of the snow and ice stay off the car is always nice. Having no hail damage to the car is even nicer! A separate 6 inch flue for the stove is relatively cheap for proper smoke-free operation. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VolcanoForge Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Do you have anyone local that runs a small saw mill? Its a good way to get rough cut lumber and you wont pay the vintage barn wood price. Guy near my place sells 1" x 12" ceder for $ 0.50 a board foot. Pine is even less. Might be worth looking into. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01tundra Posted October 10, 2012 Author Share Posted October 10, 2012 Do you have anyone local that runs a small saw mill? Its a good way to get rough cut lumber and you wont pay the vintage barn wood price. Guy near my place sells 1" x 12" ceder for $ 0.50 a board foot. Pine is even less. Might be worth looking into. I was actually talking about that last night. I have a guy local to me with a portable saw mill set up, had him rip some of my WRC timbers for me for a really reasonable rate. Now I'm wishing I would have built my kiln longer than 8'.....knew that was going to come back to bite me. If I can butt the ends together decently, I have enough red & white Oak laying on the ground for about 4 buildings right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01tundra Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 Finally starting to make a little progress. If it would ever dry up around here I think I could make a decent showing....... After searching high and low for barn wood that didn't cost 4x what new wood does, I had this great idea to actually look around on our land for what was knocked down during last Spring's storms. I believe I've found enough wood for my board & batten siding in my own back yard. It took a little determination to get the logs out of the woods, but with the help of a friends dozer we managed. I have a White Oak that's 42" diameter at the large end and also a Red Oak that's around 28" diameter. We had to cut them in 12' sections to get them out of the woods. We are hoping to have one of my friends, who owns a portable Woodmizer mill, make it out this weekend to do the cutting, weather permitting. Planning on using 10" wide siding boards and 3" wide batten strips. He's going to at a flat rate of $65/hr and is very confident he can get me in around $0.35/BF. Finally got the rough earth work finished, still have some final grading to do once things dry up a little. Ended up getting my vertical support poles from a friend this past Sunday. They are 12'-13' long 4"x6" timbers that were used for shipping tow motors. Very hard wood, but untreated. I'm planning on sawing the ends off them to expose some open grain and then soaking the bottom 3' of them in a 50/50 mixture of diesel fuel and used motor oil for some below-grade protection. Instead of pouring them in concrete, which will wick moisture and promote rot, I'm going to dig down about 3' and pour a 1' thick concrete pier with a drop-in metal stand off bracket sitting on top of the pier, set the post and screw them to the brackets, then back fill the holes with gravel/dirt to hopefully maintain some drain-ability around the posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 This is going to be a fun build to watch! One suggestion, though.... Instead of burying the wood posts, use the metal brackets to fix them to a poured footing. I've done this on countless outbuildings and it's stronger than you could ever need without sacrificing the wood to rot from below-grade moisture and bugs. You can sheath right over it and nobody will ever know it's there. Can't wait for more pics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everything Mac Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 This is going to be a fun build to watch! One suggestion, though.... Instead of burying the wood posts, use the metal brackets to fix them to a poured footing. I've done this on countless outbuildings and it's stronger than you could ever need without sacrificing the wood to rot from below-grade moisture and bugs. You can sheath right over it and nobody will ever know it's there. Can't wait for more pics. I agree, plenty solid enough for a building of this size! Looks like its going to be pretty good mate. Keep us up to date! Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 The Depression era trend of diesel fuel/used motor oil soak on timbers and fence posts, while effective, will eventually get trace amounts of oil into the ground water and your well, that is why it is now outlawed. Far better to put concrete footers under the posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
56FordGuy Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 The concrete footers would also allow for a taller building with the timbers you already have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01tundra Posted June 24, 2013 Author Share Posted June 24, 2013 Revised my plans a little, decided to make the two front doors 6' wide each, so when they are fully open they can act as side walls for the porch overhang and effectively extend the length of the shop. My boss gave me approximately 1,300 BF of Grade 1, kiln dried Poplar siding boards that was left over from the barn he just had built across the road from us, so I'm going to use this in lieu of the Oak I originally planned to use as siding. I was also given a fully dismantled 100' x 60' wood warehouse from the early 1800's, including all structural beams, siding, metal roofing, and wood floors. As soon as I figure out how to get it transported to my house I plan to use some of the structural members to build my rafters. Got the bottom 42" of my vertical posts coated last night with a below grade post coating......what a mess that made. Next step is to locate my electrical service prior to boring the 36" deep post holes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 I encourage you to use poured concrete piers for the the foundation, posts treated like yours are illegal most places and may even have fed regs against using oil. You could end up responsible for any and all oil contamination for as long as it can be detected, this is called in perpetuity, (forever.) Even creosote is being shelved unless you're a gvt. agency it's getting hard to get approval. You can use copper sulphate but it's not as effective as concrete piers. If you bury an old wheel rim at the bottom with the sonotube standing on the hole, it makes a perfect anchor so it'll never jack form freeze thaw action and it'll make the post as solid as it'll ever get. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01tundra Posted June 24, 2013 Author Share Posted June 24, 2013 I encourage you to use poured concrete piers for the the foundation, posts treated like yours are illegal most places and may even have fed regs against using oil. You could end up responsible for any and all oil contamination for as long as it can be detected, this is called in perpetuity, (forever.) Even creosote is being shelved unless you're a gvt. agency it's getting hard to get approval. You can use copper sulphate but it's not as effective as concrete piers. If you bury an old wheel rim at the bottom with the sonotube standing on the hole, it makes a perfect anchor so it'll never jack form freeze thaw action and it'll make the post as solid as it'll ever get. Frosty The Lucky. My post are untreated lumber coated with a coating sold at all the local hardware stores specifically for coating portions of wooden fence posts that will be below grade. It can also be used for the above grade portions, it's no different than a blacktop/asphalt road, driveway, walking path, or anything else. Same with driveway sealer, below grade concrete/block wall sealer, foundation sealer, asphalt roofing singles, roofing tar paper, same with the tar coating we had to spray on storm and sewer drain basins for below grade use (per the EPA), and on and on and on, so I believe I won't be alone........ I'm not really sure where it's "illegal", but it's this is not one of those places. Now creosote is illegal to use, that's why all the water-based tar coating products are on the market. "Fence Post Black Beauty Asphalt Paint Is A High Performance Water Based Paint For Wood Fences Penetrates & Seals Wood To Provide A Tough Weatherproof Finish Helps Prevent Rot Decay Rust Reduces Insect Infestation On Wooden Surfaces Easy To Apply Great For Above & Below Grade Applications Great Anti-Corrosive Coating For Metal Pipes Storage Tanks & Vertical Masonry Surfaces Exterior Use Only." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Back on Feb. 5, you said you were going to go with 50/50 diesel fuel/ used motor oil on the timbers. Did not know that you changed your mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Good, I stand relieved Jonathan. I didn't reread the whole thread so I probably just missed the change. Mea culpa. Emulsified asphalt is considered safe for all but potable water once it breaks. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01tundra Posted June 25, 2013 Author Share Posted June 25, 2013 You guys are 100% correct, I should have been a little more specific in my post this morning, I had totally forgot about the earlier talks of oil/diesel. I opted out of that approach mostly because of reasons you mentioned Frosty. I understand the concrete footer/pier argument and I haven't ruled it out completely. I see benefits of each way, I don't really care for the strength or cost of the galvanized post brackets made to bolt to concrete (they are typically in the deck building section of the big box hardware stores). I welded up some heavy duty steel mounting plates with stand-off feet and 1/2" dowel pins and then had them coated with Line-X for the Western Red Cedar timbers supporting my front porch overhang on the masonry columns, a bit overkill, but I planned on being here a while and didn't want the wood touching the concrete, even though that contact was taking place 6' above grade. You can kind of see one of them circled in red below - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted June 29, 2013 Share Posted June 29, 2013 Considering how beautiful your house is, I have no doubt that you're shop will turn out decent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01tundra Posted August 20, 2013 Author Share Posted August 20, 2013 I spent all day Saturday with a pick and shovel hacking my way through the rock and clay since the auger I rented would hardly scratch the ground.....a little less than fun. I really need some expert opinions on the door hinges I'm going to forge. There will be two front doors that swing out on the front of my shop, each door will be sided with 1" thick poplar boards and each door will be approximately 8' tall x 6' wide, so they will be heavy (I'm guessing around 175 - 200 lbs. per door). I plan to use three strap hinges per door. Right now I'm thinking 3/16" thick by 3" wide and about 3' long each. Maybe using a 3/4" - 1" diameter hinge pin. I can't decide on which way to mount the pin side of the hinges. Since the doors will make up the entire end width of the shop, I could either mount the hinges on the side of the shop (bolting through the 1" poplar siding and the front corner 6"x6" vertical posts or I can mount the pin plates on the face of the 6"x6" posts behind the doors (similar to the door pictured). I'm hoping to have the doors turn out somewhat similar to the door pictured below. I can't really put it in words like I need to and my drawing probably complicates matters. I'm not educated enough on door hardware terms to properly articulate what I'm trying to say, so I apologize for any confusion. The drawing is as if you were standing on the side of the shop looking at the outside edge of the doors where the hinge pin will be located. Not sure if anyone can follow this mess, but if so, can anyone please offer me any advise? I really appreciate any help. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Based on the estimated weight and the pic of the door you posted my only suggestion is: make the static part of the hinge at least as wide as the post or even wrap around it partially. Then again, a few hundred lbs isn't much challenge for modern screw's shear strength. Still, if the strap wraps, shear doesn't enter into it at all. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSW Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 If you want the doors to swing back down the sides of the building, take a look at the hinges on dumpsters and barn door type dump trucks. The pins are usually set out farther than on most hinges so the doors will swing back along the sides. Not the best picture, but it sort of shows what I'm thinking. Of course you'd want to alter it so that it looks appropriate for the structure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01tundra Posted August 20, 2013 Author Share Posted August 20, 2013 Frosty - I was planning on through-bolting the mounting plate that holds the hinge pin through the 6"x6's and using a 1/4" thick backing plate on the opposite side of the post, both plates being as wide as the post with four 3/8" - 1/2" Grade 8 bolts per plate. On a side note, after much thought I decided to go ahead and use pressure treated 6"x6" posts for the vertical supports and use the smaller timbers that I had coated to build a fire wood shed elsewhere on our property. I just knew that down the road I would most likely regret saving $150 by using non-treated smaller posts holding up that expensive Poplar i was gifted and those heavy doors. So....see Frosty, I do actually listen to to what you say :D DSW - The dumpster door hinges are the style I was trying to portray on the left side of my drawing, I knew I had seen them somewhere before - thanks for the picture. The doors are only required to swing out to 90 degrees and will rest in notches in the cedar posts that support the front porch timber framing. So the doors will not be able to physically swing wider than 90 degrees. My porch posts will be set out at 6' so that when the doors are fully opened I'll basically have a 20'x12' shop during decent weather. That's why I building the doors full width/height. Since I'm planning on using hex bolts through the posts, I think that may rule out the style that fold back on themselves like pictured on the door above, since the bolt heads would stand the hinges off too far from the building. I think I would get a tighter, cleaner fit mounting the pin plates to the sides of the posts. I haven't really thought of how this mounting style affects the swing of the doors at the outside edges (for required clearance between the actual doors and the posts). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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