01tundra Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 I fired up my recently built coal forge yesterday to get a little more familar with fire management and decided to mess around with a piece of round stock in the process. I know my first mistake was starting at the tail end. I also learned a lesson in overheating/burning up steel in the process, after melting the first head completely off. It was a good self-taught lesson in "what not to do" for sure :rolleyes: . My question is, how would an experienced blacksmith go about making the snake's head solid, instead of 2-D like I did? My first thought would be to heat the very end and upset it until I had enough mass to form the head, then work down the body and finish off with the tail? I got to the end and then tried upsetting it, working from the tail, and that proved to be the wrong approach. It's bugging me now and I'm ready to try to get some redemption on my next try at this one. I appreciate any opinions, suggestions (and for the record, yes I realize this is an aweful example of work, but it was more for me to just try different techniques that I had learned from my first two classes). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurlyGeorge Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Thanks for sharing this with us, Michael. It looks like a great display and a lot of great looking work. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backwoods Blacksmith Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Another good way to build up an end is to double or triple bend the end and forge weld it all into a big blob. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Or thread the end and screw on a large nut. If that's not enough mass, then fold it over and weld it into a bigger blob. Once you have the mass, it's "easy" to use punches, chisels and files to remove everything that doesn't look like a head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOblacksmith0530 Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 In my opinion the best way is as the others mentioned and that is to fold it over and forge weld it. It is the easiest type of weld to do and you know your fire will get hot enough since you burned stock in it. Get some borax from your local grocery store or wally world and have some fun. Remmeber ot forge weld you need a deep clean fire without to much blast and with patience, Don't hit too hard when you start the weld. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01tundra Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 Well now I know where I screwed up. I haven't learned to forge weld yet, time to start studying since it's the last topic in our class and I know I won't be able to wait that long to make another attempt at this. The funny part is that on my first attempt I heated the rod and folded the end over, thinking if I got it really hot I could beat the two pieces together. When that didn't work, I used my hardy cut-off to remove the folded portion. So I was on the right track, just didn't have the experience or knowledge to actually realize it...... Thanks everyone for the input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Another route is to start the head with the appropriately sized material, and to neck down leaving enough neck and material for a lap weld onto the more slender body. One version of an "animal head holder" is pictured. I got it from Valley Forge in Willet, California, a few years ago. It consists of a 2" square M.S. sawn at a 45 degree angle. A 1/4" x 1" leg is arc welded eccentrically on the bottom, as shown in the 2nd photo; it is upside down. When used, it is in the vise and the work is clamped between the leg and one vise jaw. The work is butted against the 45 degree face, and the face acts as an anvil/support. Often, the work is heated with the oxy torch while hand held tools are driven in for the details, eyes, mouth, nostrils, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 man, that is a Loooong way from an awful example of work. It's actually a darned entertaining and whimsical snake. Another way to forge a snake I haven't seen yet is start with a RR spike. Forge the shank into the snake's body leaving the spike head till last to be forged into the snake's head. Upsetting or fold welding are other ways. This road you've chosen has as many different paths to the same place as there are blacksmiths traveling it. I keep my failures for future reference. What I find surprisingly often is a failure of a technique to provide a desired result is often perfect for another result. It was ME who didn't see what was what. The climb up the learning curve is what I love most about this craft. Frosty the Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Private Entrance Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 There ain't nothing at all wrong with that snake. I've been trying to figure out the head on one I'm working on and have been putting it off. I might try something along the lines of what you did. It's got an appeal to it, it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clif Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 01tundra, Great snake, if you don't think it's good enough, set it aside for a couple of weeks and then look at it again. You'll think differently. Also, as you made it you will see what you call mishits and flaws, to someone else they are the charactor that separates handmade works of art from machine made stuff. My son has been bashing out knifes and quits before he should stating they are junk. Several of my reenactor friends have stated that if he finished the tangs and put handles on them, they would gladly pay good money for one. It's all in the eye of the beholder. your snake is a great first project and you should display it in the house somewhere. Then go out and bash out some more. I've been at this for a couple of years and still trying to make a 'good' pair of tongs. All my other attempts are in a bucket waiting for me to sort them out once I have finished learning how. Also, search around this and other sites for techniques. I learn something new everytime I long on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01tundra Posted September 11, 2012 Author Share Posted September 11, 2012 Thanks guys. I've been reading books, searching on the internet, watching videos, and also taking classes at our local forge in an attempt to soak up all of the knowledge I possibly can. I'm also to the point where I'm ready to make my own mistakes and hopefully learn from them. I finished my forge and smitty up a few months ago, but I've waited until now to fire it up in hopes that I knew enough to be dangerous and hopefully not waste fuel and resources. I've lit my fire twice with no problems, once with green coal and once with coal/coke mixture, so that in itself is an accomplishment in my eyes at this point. Still having an awful time distinguishing which are clinkers, not sure why it's so hard to figure out in my forge, because it's fairly easy to pick them out in the schools forges. I'm happy with the amount of heat my little forge can produce with very little effort, I found this out by making a few sparklers out of stock and also melting the first head off my snake the other day, I even quenched it in water and tried to keep it out of the fire as much as possible. Even though I'm barely cranking my blower, I think there's times when I need to be a little more patient and keep my hands off the blower all together.....I guess I'll learn all of these things eventually. I've read a lot about forge welding, and since my first instinct to fold the stock over seemed to be heading in the right direction (dumb luck there), I'm going to study welding techniques a lot more this week. I did teach myself that heating and beating the folded pieces into submission is a pipe dream....and also to watch where that little piece flies off to after cutting it off with the hardy, finally found it last night...............burned into the sole of my one day old work boots.....oops! I hammered out the head of the snake with a ball peen hammer (since my rounding hammer is still making its journey to me on the big brown truck). Then used a combination of the pritchel hole and horn to shape it with multiple attempts. The biggest let down is that I had my mind set on making a 3-dimensional solid head and even putting eyes on it somehow, and ended up with a 2-D flat head. I'm still not sure how to effectively use all my punches, drifts, & chisels for adding features like eyes and whatnot. My ultimate goal is to make a solid head with features and a forked tongue on it....I know.....pretty high goals for a newb huh :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01tundra Posted September 12, 2012 Author Share Posted September 12, 2012 Talked to my instructor last night during class and he basically said the same thing all of you did, could upset it, but it would probably be easier to forge weld it and then forge it into shape. I have some Iron Mountain flux headed my way, this should be entertaining to say the least! I'm quickly becoming addicted to forging, I just hope I can eventually gain the finesse and skills required to produce work 1/100 as nice as some of the work I see on this forum. I always try to look at it with inspiration in mind, but at times in the back of my head I can hear that little voice saying you'll never achieve work even remotely as nice as what most of these guys throw in the scrap bin :rolleyes: ..... The good news is that I completed and passed this week's and next week's projects last night in class. I feel like I'm learning or furthering a skill set on each project. My biggest problem is I tend to not want to strike with authority on the small work, I'm trying to not damage it, but they're slowly getting me over that misconception. I also got to use some of my new forging skills while making one of my oil candle stands this weekend, the forge makes bending metal so much more efficient, I didn't have any waste like I typically do while using my bench bender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Quote "The good news is that I completed and passed this week's and next week's projects last night in class. I feel like I'm learning or furthering a skill set on each project. My biggest problem is I tend to not want to strike with authority on the small work, I'm trying to not damage it, but they're slowly getting me over that misconception. Thats the point of taking classes, they should be structured and build up skills and confidence, so much better than having to struggle on your own, Great progress being made, keep it up, it only gets better. Congrats to your tutor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Confidence comes, don't sweat it. If I did nearly as well when I started I'd be so over confident none of you guys would talk to me. Okay, sure I was 10 or so but all I was doing was smacking hot steel on a piece of bar stock with one of Dad's ball peins. MAN did he get ticked when I burned up his spot welder heating steel. I increase my skills sets, confidence, et-al every time I pick up a hammer or watch someone else hammering and I've been a hobbiest smith for a good 50 years now, with breaks for the paycheck jobs or trees of course. And sometimes folk wanting to give me money for things I've done or want me to do. Feels good, DARNED good. <grin> Iron/steel is a lifelong learning curve, you'll NEVER hit the same piece a second time just like you can never step in the same river a second time. Smithing is about change, a flowing river IS change, living is change. So don't sweat it, you'll never get to a stage where it's consistent in an, "every blow yields a known result" way. AIN'T happening. <grin> Well, it depends on how you measure consistent, I call close good enough to tweek into shape. Search out "eye punches" and such you'll find threads about using and making the things, Brian B's being some of the best tutorials. You gotta make your specialty tools, they're just too darned expensive to buy and what the HEY, this is ABOUT making stuff. Yes? And that skirts one of the blacksmithing's natural laws, "More tools!" Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregDP Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 The experience here is great but I really look forward to taking classes some time. It's been good hearing about how much you're learning. Those hooks are impressive for anyone in my opinion. Frosty, I've been reading your post here for a while and found many of them helpful. You usually have some really good advice and it's good to know a bit more about where it comes from. A lot of names here are easy to find elsewhere, but I've never seen a website. I guess you don't really need that sort of thing when you've got a good reputation built over the years.. It must mean you just give all that advice out of kindness. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01tundra Posted September 13, 2012 Author Share Posted September 13, 2012 I agree, I've had a lot of people on this forum help me get started and keep me out of the ditches. Frosty has consistently been one of those people and I really appreciate it. Of course, there's a few people that have helped me out a lot, but at the cost of giving the newb some lumps along the way.....but I just take that in stride and keep on pressing forward in my quest to learn this great skill.......not going to run me off that easy :)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockstar.esq Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I'm not too experienced myself but I would like to add that the snake's head is almost like repousee which still counts as blacksmithing! Also I was shown how to forge weld at a hammer in this summer. One very experienced farrier spoke up and said that he quit trying to distinguish which particular shade of yellow or white welding temperature is because working outdoors in different locations he had different lighting every time. Instead he advocated watching the metal to see when it was the same color as the coal. He said make sure to stop blowing for a second to see if there's a dark spot indicating that the core of the metal isn't up to temp. I asked him about sparks warning that you're burning. He replied that sparks can lead to rushing. If you're bringing the heat up slowly it's not burning even if there are a few sparks. I was still skeptical so I asked him about carbon content differences like when you're welding HC steel in an axe bit. He very patiently explained that welding temperature is the same color for all metals regardless of the ACTUAL temperature. So HC may well not be as hot as Mild steel but they're both the same shade when they're at their respective welding temperatures! He also pointed out that it's very, very difficult to weld thin stock as a beginner. I told him I'd been trying to make chain with 1/8" round stock, he kindly told me he'd never had any success making chain with stock that small. I must confess that I think he was being charitable as other smiths at the hammer in were lauding his incredible skill. I am very grateful to him for sharing his knowledge especially in such a kind manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01tundra Posted September 17, 2012 Author Share Posted September 17, 2012 Well my 2nd attempt at a snake didn't turn out how I wanted it to, but I was successful in folding the end of the stock over and forge welding it on the first attempt, which was a win in my mind :D . My new rounding hammer also arrived on Friday and I can already tell that it's going to be my primary hammer, definitely like the feel of this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01tundra Posted September 17, 2012 Author Share Posted September 17, 2012 I have two comments. 1. Beautiful anvil stand, did you fabricate that for that nice hay budden? 2. That is a supercool forge you have there, did you fabricate that with those wheels for portability? First off, thanks. 1. Yes sir I did, the build thread is in the anvil forum - http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/28153-another-anvil-stand-build/page__hl__%2Banother+%2Banvil+%2Bstand 2. I did design it for portability since I'm having to forge out of my current shop for the time being, someday I'll build a dedicated smitty with a hood, that's the primary reason why I put casters with locking wheels on my forge. I will be able to wheel it indoors under the hood during bad weather, and take it outdoors when it's nice out. Build thread - http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/27634-forge-opinions/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Rather than trying to make the head larger than the whole body, try necking down behind the head and then forging a long taper to full body size. The head does not have to be larger than the center of the body, but does have to be larger than the neck which is long on a snake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01tundra Posted September 17, 2012 Author Share Posted September 17, 2012 Rather than trying to make the head larger than the whole body, try necking down behind the head and then forging a long taper to full body size. The head does not have to be larger than the center of the body, but does have to be larger than the neck which is long on a snake. That's going to be my next attempt, too many people have mentioned it for me not to try it now. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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