Chain Making Forge Welding

[Ron Hicks]

I tring to learn to make chain.
I dog ear scarf and bend to lap each other & forge weld.
Im having a lot of trouble getting the ends of the scarfs welded down.
Ive gotten a few welded good but took like 4 heats.
Most of the links Ive made are welded in the center and not at the scarfed ends.
Thanks for the help
Ron

[HWooldridge]

Can you post some pics? What size stock are you using?

3/8 diameter stock should weld in one heat so maybe we can help you with a bit more info.

[Tyler Murch]

work quickly, the thin edges of the scarf cool fast, tap it lightly until you know they are welded, then hit it harder

[Tyler Murch]

after looking at the pictures you put in the gallery, it looks like some of them may be good welds, but the end of the scarf is too thick, so it fused, but it didn't blend in, maybe

[Ron Hicks]

This first picture I tried to get a edge view of the scarfs.
They are scarfed on opposite sides of the bar.


Second picture is of the side of bar. I give the ends a good wack on the horn
to bend them in. Then heat and bend into like a tear drop shape with the scarfs together for the weld.
Ive tried bending the U first ,scarf ends, and turn in .


Third picture is the links welded. I have the bad ends all to the top of picture.
I get them welded in the center first weld I reheat 2-3 more times tring to get the ends to weld .
Ive made 10 links so far and only had 1 weld with out no seem at ends of scarf. I twisted 1 apart in the vise they are welded but with the end not welded that is where the tear starts.


I started with a good size coal fire and had a hard time working in it.I had better luck with just enough coal to fill the pot.
I turn the links over every few seconds and use flux. Ive tried to weld at heat just before sparks - the best weld Ive gotten the link had sparks shooting off.

Ive been having the same trouble on other welds also and takes 2-3 heats to make it right but I cant seem to get the chain to weld on down.
Thanks Ron

[HWooldridge]

Try making the ends of the scarfs very thin - down to almost a knife edge. A thicker scarf sometimes cuts into the work rather than welds so you get a notch, which is where it starts to tear. In addition, make the scarf pointed on the end, not blunt and as short as possible so you are welding a relatively small area. Doing this will help blend the weld and close the edges.

You should have only a few sparks from the fire when it's right but no "sparklers" from the fire or the work. It sounds like you are going back and forth between too cold and too hot, which may be from too shallow a fire.

[Rich Hale]

Tyler pointed the way, on the first heat just tap both of the ends down lightly. Have hammer in hand and to not touch the anvil until you are in a light swing with hammer tap one side and have the tongs so you can sping to tap the other then brush and flux and proceed with weld You do not even have to make a link to get this down, just tip and end back on to itself on a barf and weld it to itself hot hut and do it again, ten or a couple of dozen welds will make it seem like it was never hard to begin
with

[Don A]

The last chain I made was from small square stock... 1/8", I think.

I had an extra 5" bench vise laying about, so I fixed a shelf for it just above and beside my forge.

I would scarf the ends (with very thin ends), bend it around, brush, flux, then in the fire to welding heat.

Instead of using hammer blows to set the weld, my first move was into the vise where I'd crank it down good and firm. I would just leave it til it went black. (poor man's press :cool: )Then I went back to the fire for a second welding heat and shaped everything up over the tip of the horn and squared it on the heel.

Works for me,

Don

[ThomasPowers]

Too shallow a fire promotes oxidation---which then requires more heat to liquify the scale to weld. Get some coke under your work piece---a good thick bed. Are you using an open fire or a closed fire to weld in?

[Ron Hicks]

Open fire -
I have a Champion Whirlwind fire pot 9 X 11 X 4 1/2 deep.

Ive been filling the pot with coke level with top for the chain.

So I know how much coke I need - should I keep as much coke on top the fire pot as in it, with wet coal banked on sides and back?

Does the color of the flames tell you If it a comsuming fire when the blower is on?
I have a Orangeish Redish flame.

Other than the thick ends on my scarfs is this right for chain?:confused:

This is on Chain Making and what Im tring to do.
Making a Chain :Farm Blacksmithing

I wish someone could do a scarf for chain and show a picture

Thanks Ron

[ThomasPowers]

The colour of flame on top does not necessarily indicate the state of the fire where you have put your piece to be welded. What are you using to put air into the system with? I've welded with bellows, hand cranked and electric blower and to me the electric was the trickiest.

With a similiar firepot I always heap it up over the sides when welding---but then I'm usually welding billets, cleaned up and etched the one I did for a pattern welded pizza cutter over the weekend, the disk turned out very nice.

Thomas

[Ron Hicks]

I keep it in the upper 1/3 of the fire - The hand cranked blower is Royal you can see it in the old pic.

Im getting welds and think I must not be making the scarf right- I cant seem to get the ends welded - it welds in center just the very tiny ends of the scarf is where I have my trouble.
I tried today thinning the ends down & still having same problem.

Ive got to be doing something Wrong ,I know the guys that made chain did spend an hour on each link with 4-5 welding heats.

Im getting welds and think its my scarfs thats the problem
Can you see in the pic. what Im talking about???????

Look at the top of the links .
I must not understand this book Making a Chain :Farm Blacksmithing
Its welding first heat all but the very ends
Thomas have you made chain like this how did you shape the scarfs??
Ive been making pretty good Forge welds till I started foolin with this chain
Ron

[BT]

Ron

Looks like your scarf may be too long. Bend the piece in a U shape before you scarf the ends. Then scarf at an angle on the step of your anvil or any other fairly sharp edge. Do one side, and flip it over and do the other side - one heat. You can see the type of scarf I am talking about in the picture "B" on your posted link. Then roll the scarfs together at an angle as in picture "C". The link will be somehat pointed on the end at this point, but the scarfs should be fairly short. Then weld and upset the pointed end back to the oval shape. The pointed end gives you a bit more material to make the weld. You should be able to make a link in 3 heats. 1 to bend the U. 1 to scarf the ends and bring them together and 1 to complete the weld.

[Ron Hicks]

I guess Im just hard headed - Ill keep at
Has anyone tired making chain like in the link?

[Ron Hicks]

OK Guys I give - Making Chain isnt fun anymore I hate it!!!!!!!!
20ft. of 3/8 rd bar trashed out - bucket full of clinkers ,burnt, smoked,wasted coal.Time to walk away & leave it be Im to uptight.
Sorry to bother you all and thanks for all the help everyone gave me, sorry I have wasted your time.
Ron

[Rich Hale]

Ron dont give up do some faggot welds and get them down pat. there is not cice in useing a lot of stack and getting frustrated ,save the steps of bending just turn a piec back on itself for an inch or so and weld it,,,whack it with a chop saw or whatever and do it agian three feet of stock will do a lot

[Ian]

Ron, if at first you don't succeed........ frustration is the brain telling you to leave it alone, not give up on it.

[Glenn]

If things work out perfectly the very first time, you have done something very wrong, or Murphy was in someone else's shop that day.

Ron, back off, rethink what your doing, and study on the subject. Then go back to the fire and carefully watch each step of the process making sure each step is done correctly. Make just a few links at a time, and move on to something else.

It is not the first, second, or third item you make that works. It is making 100 items and throwing away 99 that makes number 100 look so good. Keep at it, we are pulling for you (pun intended).

[HWooldridge]

I had the devil's time learning to forge weld and went on for several years without much success - even though I did reasonably well at other blacksmithing processes. Although I watched other people and asked many questions, I continued to have trouble. One day, I was playing around in a different forge with some high quality coal and next thing I know, I'm hitting welds left and right. I tried to analyze what was different and came to the conclusion I was blowing too much air on previous attempts so the material was almost always burning on the surface but the core was too cool. Now, I bring the fire up quickly to a welding heat after the pieces are fluxed, then turn down the blast and let them soak until they are the color of the fire and a FEW bursting sparks are coming out of the top. A lot of it is practice but it has to be focused so as the others have said, lay it down and come back later if you start getting tired and frustrated.

[bruce wilcock]

chain making ,made a good bit , for 3/8 long link cut of 7 ins and for a start dont even make a scaph just lap them over at the crown ,get your anvil up to the fire,some of the women chain makers worked of the end of the anvil facing the pike ,for small chain cut the rod with a slanting cut and its all the scarph you need .The rod you are using ,if its free cutting or HT rebar it proberly wont be the easiest bar in the world to weld .

[ThomasPowers]

my first forge welding was billets for pattern welded knives, so to me *that* is easy and "drop the tong welds" are much harder.

For an easy weld I like to make baskets out of 1/8" steel wire, (election sign frames) it can be done in a small fire as you only need to heat a small part to welding temp.

Also my "trick" for billet welding is to pump up the forge HOT while fluxing the billet anf then bury it in the fire with the air *off* and go get a glass of water or use the facilities---just something to allow the piece to soak and come up to temp all the way through with no air possible. Then start the air steady rather than fast and let the temp come up nice and evenly with no oxidation. When the piece looks like "butter melting in the sun" take it out and hit it firmly rather than sharply and Bob's Your Uncle! (actually he's my brother in law...)

Thomas

[BT]

Ron

Here are a couple pages from one of the books that Sven posted links to.

This may help to illustrate the process a little better.

[Maillemaker]

Related question: How do you know when the weld sets? Do trumpets sound and angels sing? I've tried welding some chain, and I can only guess if the welds set or if I just have hammer-closed rings. Also, if you have a weld, do you risk breaking it trying to refine the joint?

[thingmaker3]

You know it when you try to pull it apart forcefully and it stays together. Anything else is just guessing.

[Frank Turley]

It is difficult to explain with words. On an English/American pattern anvil, I have put a 1/8" radius on the near side from the step to the waist center. I'll assume you're right handed. Use at least 7" of 3/8" stock for ease of handling. With the U bend and the legs of equal length and holding at a 45º angle, lower the left leg below the anvil step 3/8". The right hand leg is on the 1/8" anvil radius, the inside corner of the 90º cut about 3/8" onto the anvil face. Use half-face blows. After each blow, move your tong reins a tiny bit toward the point of the horn. You're shooting for the anvil to make a smooth shoulder, and by moving your tongs, it will help draw the scarf obliquely toward the inside of the legs. Leave the scarf points 1/16" thick. You lowered the left leg, because it makes the scarf a little cattywampus. Then when you close both scarfs together, they bypass each other easily. The won't bang into each other. Turn the U over and scarf in the same way.

When you bend them for closure, do not use smooth bends to make it look like a finished link. Make each short bend at a 45º angle. They meet at 90º (like drawing C in 'Farm Blacksmithing'). Let"s think about it. You shouldered both scarfs at 45º. Therefore, to mate them properly, they meet at 90º. If you look inside the join, you should see an s-shaped seam. The points of the scarfs will protrude beyond the lap. It looks strange with them sticking out, but you need all of that material. This method allows you to get material into the weld without having to upset. The scarfs should be closed and touching together; no gaps. One way is to lightly hit a leg to force the scarf upward. Reverse and do the same. You may also need to tap the scarfs together at a bright heat. When you weld and take it to the horn, the horn and the hammering will allow the 90º to become a smooth curve. In fact, it will become an oversized curve, but that can be corrected later.

The dance. Hold with link tongs or short jawed, flat tongs at the U bend with the tongs parallel to the legs. Use borax at a fairly bright heat, so that it melts right away. You do not need to put borax in between the scarfs and then close. Just put it all around the closed joint. There will be some capillary action. At a welding heat with maybe a few incipient sparks (or a sweating heat with no sparks), go the the anvil face welding with light, then moderate blows. You will be working at the near corner of the face, not far from where you drew the scarfs. This gets you close to the horn. Turn it over right away by turning your wrist counter-clockwise. You don't have time to spin the reins in your hand. Hit on the other side with moderate blows. Take it to the horn and hold it about 30º to 40º, scarf up and tong reins to the left and toward you. While hammering, swing the tongs away from you little by little, so that you get overlapping blows, and you will be working on the scarf body and point. If you still have a welding heat, turn it over and hit it the same way. I often run out of heat before turning it. In that case, I take another fluxing/welding heat and go directly to the horn. If your hammering is correct, you will wind up with a kind of moderate peak at the top of the join. This gives a little extra thickness. After the weld, the link will be oversized, so with an overall heat, it can be closed and fine tuned. If you started with a 7" length, you'll wind up with the straight sides about 7/8" apart.

I have three old links that I purchased at a farm sale, New York state. They are old, probably 150 years old or more. Each has the peaked top, in appearance, sort of like a proofreading 'caret.' The points of the scarfs do show slightly. However, looking inside and out between scarf points, the weld is solid. This is acceptable.

http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools