anvil horn ''left or right''

[Glenn]

how does one lose a finger on a cut off hardy that is left in?

ANYTHING on the face of the anvil can be a hazard.

 

My original cut off hardie was almost 4 inches tall and the width of the anvil face. I was working near he horn, moved horizontally, and bumped the cut off with my elbow. At that point I realized it was a warning to keep the anvil face free from any obstructions.

 

Painting a tool a bright color is a good idea and a visual reminder of danger, but DOES NOT provide any physical protection.

 

You thing about how you work in your shop and I think about how I work in my shop. We both need to thing about the 150 world wide countried that read this forum and how to protect them in their shops. If painting sharp edges and pinch points a bright color is helpful then please paint them. Rmove any thing from the face of the anvil while forging and you have removed the problem. No work around, no remembering the tool is in the hardie hole, no problem.

 

 

Same with trip hazards. Do not work around them or step over them. Clean them up. (But that is another subject)  

[iron woodrow]

the brain is the most important tool we possess. to teach people to use it wisely is our goal as teachers.

to teach people to fear things just because they are different to what we "heard an old bloke say once" is not what i am about.

bubble wrapping and telling people "this is the way" is what this thread in particular is about.

there IS NO RIGHT WAY to have your anvil facing. it is about what works.

THERE IS NO RIGHT WAY when it comes to cutoff hardy tools. it is about whether you trust yourself as a smith, and also about WHAT WORKS FOR YOU.

 

someone once said- i think someone on this forum has it as their signature "do not build a box, that way you do not have to think outside the box" ;)

 

there are fundamentals to learn, sure, but there are a lot of people out there that take the teachers word as gospel.

 

"my grampa told me to always remove the hardy"

 

"the master smith i learned from told me to always have the horn to the right"

 

"thumbs up, not down"

 

these are all boxes we are placing upon others, and not teaching them to think outside.

sure a warning of "make sure you remember the hardy is there" or

"if you think you may miss the mark, or don't trust your strike, take it out" is more appropriate than a blanket "REMOVE THE HARDY AT ALL COSTS" approach.

 

my advice:

the safest thing in the smithy, or in any work place, is comfort and confidence.

if you are uncomfortable and sore, you are doing it wrong, and rethink what you are doing. if you think you could do it better or more efficiently another way, try it and see! you might be pleasantly surprised!

(discomfort and pain is not to be mistaken from "the burn" of your muscles working.....)

 

an unwise man once said "no one, however smart, however well educated, however experienced, is the suppository of all wisdom" tony abbott australian prime minister 2013

 

to the inexperienced, in whatever country you are in, please do your research, here and elsewhere, and read between the lines.

 

taking one mans (or womans) word on a subject as the ultimate truth does nothing but make YOU a subject yourself.

[iron woodrow]

i have a front step at my house.

i have never needed to paint it yellow.

i have never needed to turn it into a ramp.

i step over it, because it is there.

even when i am tired, i step over it.

if i am drunk, i may trip over it, but i don't forge drunk.

just saying ;)

[Nobody Special]

You don't put up a ramp on your stairway, and paint it yellow, but would ya have one without a handrail? Basic safety is still basic safety. Stuff happens. I drive safe and careful, but I still put my seatbelt on. Awareness is NOT a suitable substitue for safe practices and good PPE.

 

My grandfather did woodworking as a hobby for 40 years. He left the top uard off his table saw. And why not, after all? They're annoying, get in the way, can't see the work as easy, and he wasn't putting his hand anywhere near the blade. Used push boards and was very careful. For 40 years.

 

And then one day it kicked, he slipped, and the next thing you know, his right index finger was 1/8" shorter out of the middle.

 

Besides which, you might be that careful. But do you think everyone watching ya and picking up your habits is as careful as they think they are?

[Everything Mac]

My great great grandfather worked in a wood shop. This was back when health and safety didn't exist obviously. But one day he was cutting a bit of wood, with what I assume one of those big circular saws.

He slipped and cut his thumb off. Apparently all he said was "Bother"

Anyway a few years went by and he was back at work doing the same operation when he slipped again and cut off his other thumb. Again all he said was "oh bother"
- true story, we were talking to our grandparents about it who could remember him.

My point is that accidents happen. - out here in the rigs they try and remove a problem entirely by changing the way things are done, if the risk cannot be removed then you try to remediate it.

I tend to remove my hardies after use just because it's a good habit for me to try and keep tidy. I think the risk of cutting off a finger is pretty low but better safe than sorry and all that.

Andy

[iron woodrow]

i would love to know where you blokes get your multiple razor sharp toothed 2500rpm cut off hardies from!  :blink:

mine just sits there and i have to put a job on it and hit!

no (for  you safety over engineering fellows), i do not leave it there for all eternity, i just leave it in if i am going to use it for a particular process. i.e. forging nails.

the idea of forging the nail, and then reaching down, picking up the hardy, then putting it into the anvil, using it once, and then putting it back in its naughty corner, for EVERY NAIL, is simply ludicrous.

and to those who swear by doing that, i ask you: what is your main profession?

mine is not blacksmithing, at the moment, sure, but i have done smithing for a living in the past, and i plan to do it again in the near future, and such inefficiencies, all because i do not trust myself to not hit my hand on an inanimate (and stationary) object, are simply inexcusable.

i may as well extinguish my forge for fear of sustaining 3rd or 4th degree burns. i mean- there it is, the least safe thing in the smithy- the hot thing you have to REMEMBER NOT TO TOUCH.

 

armchair and hobby smiths can bubble wrap what they want, but in the real world of making a living, time is money, and efficiency is key. you work around hazards, and remain vigilant.

 

i have more chance of cutting off my finger when i am slicing a ham. logically and statistically.

sorry if i ruffled a few feathers.....

but can we get back to talking about REAL BLACKSMITHING????

(oh and NS, it is a single step- it does not need a rail. and if a man decides to remove a safety feature that has been  legally supplied with a power tool, he cannot be surprised if something goes wrong)

[iron woodrow]

ps. the anvil (which way?) horse has bolted, the gate has been closed, and it has lived out its' long and happy life.

can we not feed it to the dog? or at least bury it? i fear its' swollen corpse will burst if it is flogged any more.... :rolleyes:

[SReynolds]

I just now found this so's I will comment...just for fun.

 

I'm right handed and thus my hammer is in my right hand. (I hope that is ok?)

 

I have two anvils behind me when I stand @ the forge, one horn to left, another to the right. So there. I can't be wrong. LOL

 

I do not allow hardie to remain in the hardie hole when I make nails. But...seriously.........I fail to see how one would slice-off a finger when you forge a nail **if** the hardie is opposite your hammer hand.   in my opinion,I just don't see it. 

 

I use the anvil with horn to left to make horse shoes.

 

Having to take a step to the side/ inefficiant etc. if the horn points to the right when right handed??????  ....I don't undrstand that. Your anvil would have to be, maybe four/five foot long.........

And you are saying that it isn't ok to move once you approach the anvil? I sometimes must move when making shoes (on a left handed horn anvil)

[Everything Mac]

A left handed smith with the horn to the right? Similarly a right handed smith with the horn to the left?

My anvil is set up so the horn is on my right.

[David Kailey]

When I was a young man and was just starting (early 50�s), I was taught by the old smith to face the anvil so my striking arm was near the horn, opposite the location of the Hardie Hole.
He said this was for my safety, just in case I left a hardie tool in place.
I believe because I started that way, most of the time I face the anvil with my striking arm near the horn. But sometime I am all around my anvil at times.
Then again, when I trained with Naham Hersom in Boise Idaho in about 2004, one of the first things he told me was to face the anvil so my striking arm was opposite the Hardie Hole.
He also told me of some horrible stories about blacksmiths that have left a hot cut in the hardie hole and slit there arms open.
I believe a person continues on with the training habits they start with.
Ted Throckmorton

 

I agree with this line of though. All hardy tools stick up above the plain of the anvil face, sharp or not striking one with you fingers between your hammer handle and hardy tool is going to hurt at the minimum or ..........well you may not be able to hold a hammer with your preferred hand any more.

[David Kailey]

i would love to know where you blokes get your multiple razor sharp toothed 2500rpm cut off hardies from!  :blink:

mine just sits there and i have to put a job on it and hit!

no (for  you safety over engineering fellows), i do not leave it there for all eternity, i just leave it in if i am going to use it for a particular process. i.e. forging nails.

the idea of forging the nail, and then reaching down, picking up the hardy, then putting it into the anvil, using it once, and then putting it back in its naughty corner, for EVERY NAIL, is simply ludicrous.

and to those who swear by doing that, i ask you: what is your main profession?

mine is not blacksmithing, at the moment, sure, but i have done smithing for a living in the past, and i plan to do it again in the near future, and such inefficiencies, all because i do not trust myself to not hit my hand on an inanimate (and stationary) object, are simply inexcusable.

i may as well extinguish my forge for fear of sustaining 3rd or 4th degree burns. i mean- there it is, the least safe thing in the smithy- the hot thing you have to REMEMBER NOT TO TOUCH.

 

armchair and hobby smiths can bubble wrap what they want, but in the real world of making a living, time is money, and efficiency is key. you work around hazards, and remain vigilant.

 

i have more chance of cutting off my finger when i am slicing a ham. logically and statistically.

sorry if i ruffled a few feathers.....

but can we get back to talking about REAL BLACKSMITHING????

(oh and NS, it is a single step- it does not need a rail. and if a man decides to remove a safety feature that has been  legally supplied with a power tool, he cannot be surprised if something goes wrong)

I make the better part of my yearly income smithing. I just forged a run of 250 nails followed by another run of 200 I pulled the hot cut every time and lay it on the face of the anvil. I have thought like you. But I watch a guy lose a finger on a hot cut. I can forge about 70 nails and hour it takes an average of 4 seconds to pull it out of the hardy, and 1 second to put it in. so I lose about 5.8 min every hour pulling it out and putting it back in. So I make a nail every 0.85 min. If I leave the hot cut in I would gain 7 nails an hour or 10%. I get a $1 buck a piece for a nail.  I wonder how much time I would lose it I lost a finger. i mean down time while i heal up. And how dumb i would feel about losing a finger, couple weeks of work, several grand in hospital bills, and at best they reattach it but it works kind of ok. All of a sudden I bet i would trade hours of my life and thousands of $$$ to have my god given finger back.  you said"armchair and hobby smiths can bubble wrap what they want, but in the real world of making a living, time is money, and efficiency is key. you work around hazards, and remain vigilant." Efficiency is key my friend but remaining vigilant means not taking risks for a minimal reward. If you want a hot cut then build a stand with a hardy and put your hot cut there. We are not spiders or octopuses, it will not grow back.

 

Below is a video of my forging nails ther is 22 seconds of intro and 12 seconds at the end, i was not rushing here by any means and in the middle of a big run i do not talk, but I averages about 1 every min. I hop you fins something in the video that will make you faster, so you dont feel the need to risk your body.

 

[iron woodrow]

 

as above- different strokes for different folks.

i am not right....

neither are you....

let people make their own mind up..... on what they think is safe for them, and whether they trust their hammer skills.

we provide information, not rules.

thankyou for your input on the subject.

 

i have always believed in making nails in one heat though....

sorry i don't have youtube video skills....

[SReynolds]

Interesting video. I have never seen nor read about making nails in that manner. It seems to me to be more popular to make a shoulder on the stock as you'd draw it out. The shoulder is the indicator where to cut it off at as well as hold it in the header.

Have you ever tried the shoulder meothod? if so I assume you didn't care for it.

[allessence]

I used to run the horn to the left and am right handed... I then worked with a guy who was right handed and kept his horn to the right.. Turns out for turning an eye it's easier for me with the horn to the right as this makes a nice even blow as the same angle as the curved part of the horn vs working over the horn on the left..

[matei campan]

the horn, left or right? rebound? edges? - real blacksmiths don't even need hammers :)

 

 

ok, just a pair of tongs :)

[L Smith]

Back in the 60's I went to a hammerin and the smith left his hardie in place and started working over the far edge (horn left). Didn't look safe to me. Since I did not have a hardie yet I made a hot cut and a cutting plate. Some day I will make a hardie but I can see my cut line better with a top cut

[SJS]

I am right handed and have the horn to the left, but I shoe horses. I also often stand very close to the anvil with my hip almost touching the anvil. Which would put the hardie dangerously near my hammer hand. If you have ever seen or used the Hofi Ergonomic hammer method? You often hammer with your hand over the face of the anvil quite a bit... If you have a London Pattern anvil with the hardie in you could end up over it inadvertently... I don't make nails very often, but if I was setting up to do that, I might stand on the other side of the anvil to keep the hardie away form my hand, (since I shoulder the nail stock with my handle parallel to the near edge of the anvil...) then I could forge the taper, nick and twist off in the header stuck in the pritchel hole, nice work flow right to left... with just a little repositioning... There are lots of ways that people present themselves to the anvil, you might not be in any danger, or it could be impossibly small. For me the way I forge, it is a good practice to just pull it out. You might be very attentive and aware of your surroundings. I get totally absorbed in what I am doing, and become less aware of things around me. I have struck my hand on a turning fork that I left in the hardie hole, if it had be a hot cut I would been in a world of hurt... I am willing to entertain the idea that I an idiot, but I doubt it;-) Seat belts save lives, statistic prove that, if being a little overly cautious save me a finger or two I'm all for that. I know industrial smiths, who wont put their hand under the dies of the steam hammer without a block set between the dies, to provide a kiss block to keep their hand from being inadvertently forged out too thin... The older I get the less I like to risk, anything I would like to keep...

[Frosty]

That's WAY too much hassle Scrambler. The correct way to align your anvil magnetically is to float it in the slack tub and it will align itself to magnetic NS.

 

I mean REALLY don't they teach you kids ANYTHING?

 

Frosty The Lucky.