If you would save up for one tool

[Dan Crabtree]

If you were to be a full time blacksmith, what tool would you buy? Now I know quite a few people are going to ask what am I making, well that I really have no idea, I make iron roses, furniture, bbq tools, and such, Going towards a kinda funtional artist type. would you get a:


500 lbs anvil (i currently have a 120 lbs peter wright) feel free to make another anvil selection

Power or air hammer ( I currently dont have either)

TIG welder (I currently have a MIG welder and oxy/act torch and see no need to upgrade but just asking)

Please suggest other tooling, Im not trying to jump into being full time right away but being as im 15 atm and will have my license in a few months I would much rather be a blacksmith than work at mc donalds or some other fast food restraunt. Ive been working at it for about a year and then some. Any comment or suggestion is welcome.

[Archie Zietman]

I'd definately say air/power hammer. saves a lot of time drawing out (I hate drawing things out by hand, takes hours, and that's how I have to do it) that way you can make a lot more flat bar stuff in a shorter period of time.

[Rich Hale]

Considering what you have and your personal goals,,,,spend the money on a few classes if you can find some you can attend. The best money you can spend is on steel for forgeing, If you have basic tools and can spend long hours at the anvil you will advance your skills a lot more rapidly. I believe the most important consideration in acquiring and useing a power hammer is a good solid understanding of how metal moves by hand.

[Archie Zietman]

Now that I've thunk about it, I agree with Rich, tools don't make the smith, or whatever the saying is. :)

[HWooldridge]

Francis Whitaker had a 150 lb anvil and stated on several occasions that others could not do better work just because they owned a 400 lb one. Like Rich said, skill is more important than a bigger power hammer. In addition, some specialty tools help with certain sizes and volumes of work but a lot can be done with basic tools.

Although I have four now-grown sons, none ever showed any inclination to work with me so I had a one-man shop all my life. One of my most treasured and used tools is a treadle hammer that I built from the ABANA plans - it gets daily use. I also use a drill press a lot because I like to rivet stuff and never cared for hot punching. I use my power hammer frequently but not as much as you might think. The lathe and mill are seldom used but are convenient to make tooling. The MIG and TIG get equal time depending on the job.

A brief anecdote: I know a fellow who cashed out of another business with a lot of money and decided to become an artist-blacksmith. He bought a 15,000 sf building and stocked it with every tool you can imagine. He was pretty handy so learned to use all of them but the last time I talked to him, he was primarily making furniture by buying prefab Italian elements and welding them together. He had about 10 guys working for him who were all doing the same thing. His three power hammers sat silent for the most part and he finally sold the big ones. That vast collection of tools did not gift the world with a brilliantly talented, creative ironsmith but he did stick with the trade and now uses the right tools he needs to do the work that he has chosen.

[Dan Crabtree]

I have attended serveral hammer ins and a rose making class, I have the basics of blacksmithing down pretty good (if there ever is such a thing haha). I can move alot of metal by hand. When i was starting out I loved drawing stuff out, I would take a half inch bar and make it 1/4 inch then make S hooks out of it just for fun. I use the money im currently making from shows and such for steel and tooling I cant make. What classes would you recommend? Ive never used a power hammer before but the place where they hold the hammer ins at has one, I could ask for lessons if you find that a powerhammer would be a good investment.

[Ed Thomas]

Dan: In your position, you might want to keep a fairly trim shop because you won't know where you're going to wind up in a few years. Moving or storing big stuff is a pain. If you keep your shop compact, you might be able to travel more easily with it.

A better way to look at tools is to figure out what you want to do with iron. As you reach the limits of your current tools to do those things, carefully explore the tools that expand your capabilities. I would be very surprised if you have come close to hitting real limits yet with a forge, hammer, and anvil.

Look at LOTS of iron picture books. Go find great iron. Don't settle for anything but the best for your examples for learning. Then when you see what you want to do, find those folks that know how to do that by clubs, classes, and correspondence.

I'm with Hollis on the treadle hammer. It makes a million hard tasks easy... or at least routine. It is the third hand you always wish you had at the anvil. It allows you to hold hot iron with one hand and tooling in the other; it does the striking for you. It is NOT the tool to increase your ability to move iron in a hurry, but is rather a finesse tool. I'd put that ahead of a power hammer in your circumstances.

[oakwoodforge]

I'm split, Treadle hammer or biger anvil, I am sort-of limited by the anvil I have right now, anything larger than 1.5" thick takes f o r e v e r even with a 3 lb hammer, of course I am not sure my arm could take anything larger than the 3 lb hammer. But I think and correct me if I am wrong, that a Big anvil say 350lbs + would make the big stock move much quicker and with less effort. But then again I don't have 3 arms so a treadle hammer would make fullering or anything else that uses top and bottom tooling way easier, heck it might even help move some of the bigger stock I work sometimes.
I think the first one I would actualy buy is the treadle hammer. More imediate uses, as I can always get by with my little Vulcan 110lb but try as I might the third arm just wont grow :D

[Ed Thomas]

Oakwood:

A bigger hammer or bigger anvil will not make a 1.5" bar move enough faster that you will really notice.

Your anvil is big enough. You can increase its total mass with a denser or bigger anvil stand if you feel that is an issue.

But to move that size steel, you must get it hot. If you get that bar heated thoroughly to a bright yellow heat, and hammer correctly, you can move it routinely. If you have to reforge the whole thing a lot, then you might consider smaller stock.

Consider a smaller hammer. Two pounds is usually sufficient.

I have a 500 pound anvil. I don't use it at all. I use my 260 pound anvil almost exclusively. But I have worked all day for a week on a $4 anvil that was missing all but a 4" square of plate of its surface. The whole back end from the hardie hole on was broken off, and about half the remainder of the steel surface was missing. As long as the anvil is about 100/3 ratio (anvil mass to hammer mass) or greater, it is probably enough.

The treadle hammer is not the answer to moving metal. Its best use is control. You can also do almost anything on a good power hammer that you can do on a treadle hammer, so lots of professional smiths don't even fool with a treadle hammer. Of course, plenty of others do use them extensively, so a lot depends on your work and budget.

[Glenn]

If your working 1-1/2" stock, you need to first get it hot completely, and all the same temperature of hot. That takes a BIG fire and a lot of heat.

Then no matter what hammer you use, it is still a lot of work. But for any amount of 1-1/2" stock, to make it worth the effort, you need a striker or a power hammer in my opinion. I have worked 1-1/4" and it can be done, but it is power hammer country. Either that or you drag your knuckles on the ground on the way home at the end of the day. :wink:

[oakwoodforge]

Glenn , I am afflicted with the terrible desire to make make my own tools, Hammers , cut-off tools that type of thing. I think that part of the problem I am having is the fact that the 4140 Steel axle shafts I am using are just some tough stuff. When working at a bright yellow it moves reasonably well with my 2.2lb heammer, its just slow going. I am thinking that a treadle hammer with about a 50lb head could take the place of a striker and I wont have to mortgauge my house to buy it , like I would a Power Hammer, I would Love a nice well kept little giant but... :D

[HWooldridge]

A treadle can "help" with drawing but it is not the right tool as the others have said. Clay Spencer shows how to do so with his demo - spring fullers that draw down the stock. Something you can do to help is weld a loop on top of the hammer head so you grab it with your off hand and assist your leg. The stock is slid between the fullers and you bang away with your whole body... :wink:

I also started like you with no power tools and wanted to make all my own blacksmith tools. I had a bunch of square 1-1/2 agricultural work bar and it was a real b*&^h to forge by hand! I wound up calling a friend over and we did a lot with a sledge. You might want to consider enlisting a victim...uh...partner.

[mike-hr]

My shop got a lot nicer when I found an old 4.5 by 6 foot platen table. 2300 pound cast iron, with 1.5inch square holes all over it. It had a slight hump in the middle from the casting process. I looked around and found a factory with a big CNC milling center close by, and had the top machined flat. All that mass makes a great base for bending forks, beverly shear, etc. and the square holes make fixturing convienient. It's probably the only tool in the shop that I just can't live without.

[Glenn]

The axles I worked by hand quickly went from a 2# hammer to a 3# hammer to the rack and the 4# hammer made a wonderful difference. Just remember that the 4# hammer will take more energy to operate, and your muscles will feel the difference if you are not used to it.

A striker can use a 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 20 pound or more hammer, depending on the need. As Bruce Wilcox has found, strikers need training also, and some work together better than others. Multiple strikers on a single piece of steel is a well thought out dance.

Now I have seen Irnsrgn take a hammer (winpy little 3# hammers) one in each hand, and double strike on hot iron. Sounded like a power hammer running real fast with lots of power. The assistant had only blind faith in Irnsrgn's words that he would not get killed, to protect him. :?

[irnsrgn]

Well in defense of Glenn's statement above, it was Glenn who was holding the iron and when I got done he showed me how it should have been done as he is more proficient with his left hand and I only use mine if it is absolutely necessary.

Now as to a 2 pound hammer, to me its a toy and I only use one as a finish hammer preferring a 2.5, 3 or larger so I don't have to stand at the anvil pecking away with a little hammer when there is metal to move. Move it and be done with it. The customer is expecting me to move iron not bruise it to death. But you must consider that I have been using hammers all my life to make a living and you have to use what the job calls for if you are capable.

My main anvil is a 125 # Blackjack and it works just as well as the 58 # Acme I used to have. I have a 400 # or so anvil and it just sets and collects dust till I need it to do walking plow lays as it has a big enough face that I can lay the whole plow lay on and do the wing pivot. Why everybody thinks they need a humongous anvil to do work, Beats me.

Then there is the power hammer theory, the weight of the power (moving) head should be a ratio of 2lbs to every 100 lbs of the bases weight for stability. Somehow everbody got to thinking you are not supposed to use over a 2 lb hand hammer on a 100 pound anvil, get real and think about that one for a bit. What are you gonna do split a 100# anvil down the middle by using heavier than a 2 lb hammer. My grandfather, my father and my uncle and I all used a 4# hammer to finish plow lays with on a 100 lb or so anvil and the Anvil is still alive and well.

A power hammer is nice at times, I have 4, 2 of them under power at the moment, and they get used very little, just for mainly plowlays and big rotary mower blades, but they are there if I really need them. I don't have a treadle hammer as they take more energy to move metal than a hand hammer does and are a lot slower. I have started to make one, but it will have an air cylinder to operate it and be temporarily fastened to the waist of the 400 # anvil to function as a striker as I work alone, and will be swung out of the way at other times.

An Oxy-Acetylene torch is a must for cutting and brazing and some welding, but a MIG (wire feed) Welder is more efficient, faster, and has less heat build up for welding light material. A good AC-DC welder is more useful, quicker and less expensive than a TIG welder. I have a Tig set up, but only use it for Aluminum and Stainless as it is so expensive to operate, Gas is outrageous, filler metals are higher than a cats back and the consumable parts of the torch are expensive and its slow. It has its place just like the other processes. A plasma cutter is a more useful machine and a lot more versatile than a TIG set up.

I am in mainly the repair business with some light fabricating and some machining work. I have a large hydraulic press also and it gets a lot of work done for me. I have a shop full of tools, a portable rig full of tools and some more loaned out and some stored in my garage. I didn't get them all at once but they were purchased as they and the money came available over a 40 year period since I started my own business. Most of the first purchases have been replaced with newer used machines. I buy very little new machinery due to the initial cost.

well that's my windy 2 cents worth and I am sticking to it.

Now to the question posed at the start of this thread, Dan my advise to you would be to put money into a savings account and just watch other people work and how they work and how they do things. You are young and right now you have a deep and inquiring interest in becoming a blacksmith, but as you get older your life may take a different direction and if you have all your cash tied up in smithing tools you will have to liquidate them to go another direction. Take it slow and work with what you have and learn how to do it without all the fancy stuff first, If you really do end up smithing for a living it will make you a better smith in the long run when one of those fancy machines breaks down in the middle of a job.

But then I am just an old crusty opinated (hard headed) old smith. I have been down the road you are traveling at the moment. It has been a good road for me altho a dirty and strenuous one. Just what ever you do, do not injure your back, or loose an eye as I did.

Irnsrgn

[T-Gold]

OK, I am just typing this up real quick before I read the entire thread -- I wanted to respond to the question and not follow the direction of the thread just yet, I'll do that in a bit -- but given that the original question is "If you were to be a full time blacksmith, what tool would you buy?" assuming that this means "that you don't already have", the one thing I would probably buy would be a power hammer. Around here, sharpening pavement breaker bits would probably be a big part of my bread and butter, and a power hammer would make the dressing part of that job a lot easier. I would also like one to make it quick and easy to draw out and forge architectural elements like leaves, vines, spikes, etc. from heavy stock. Expect another response a little later after I actually read the thread


*edit*

OK, thread read, gist gotten. At this point, if I were Mr Crabtree, I would stop and do some brain work for a while (fifteen minutes is usually enough brain work for me ) and think about tools that you've wanted in the past. Then, in the next month, make a note of every time you've wanted X tool while you've been working. Whether it's "Dang, I wish I had a MIG welder so I could just stick this handle onto this ladle cup while I work on it" or "Geez, if only I had a treadle hammer, I could chisel the veins on this leaf so nice!" or "If I just had a lathe I could cut these tenons in a jiffy!" Then, take another month or so, start pricing out your top three or four, figure out what it would take for you to learn to use them and what you would use them for (and how they would pay for themselves!)... and then, at that point, you're ready to begin thinking about maybe expending some cash!

By the way, re: the movement issue... if you're like me, you're already accumulating a lot of junque that you just can't do without. My advice on this is to keep in mind about a pallet worth of stuff that you couldn't part with -- this makes for an easy pickup load or so, and if you do actually palletize it, you can move it anywhere in the country for a fairly reasonable price. Some small power hammers like the Li'l Jr or the smaller Chinese hammers would fit comfortably on a pallet next to an anvil, a good-size coal forge, and a large tool box, for example.

[Ten Hammers]

OK, 'nother old guy responding (yawn). Dan, Junior (irnsrgn) is right. Saving your money is the gig. THEN you can make informed deciscions as you need things. A good sound business has money in the bank. your Mom and Dad are probobly helping you a lot now (consider that they are probobly paying utilities and your 'net connection fee and leave it at that). I am extremely glad to see that you are already tuned up to the fact that Mickey D's ain't the place to make your fortune. Hard work and persistance are tools but education is a tool as well. Hangin out here is an education. You may (if you wish) save some cash and attend some of the nationally acclaimed schools (and specific names escape me for just the moment). Rob Gunter is a sharp feller I believe. You are going to hear more on this in subsequent posts I'm sure (education). Experience is also a tool. You are gettin some and that's great. You have cars to buy and ladies to buy for in your life. New trucks today cost more than my first house. Your banker will be impressed with the fact that you can save (and earn) money (yawn). This I'm sure seems like boring stuff but it's a fact. If you wish to tread yourself, get a good toolbox to organize your hand tools (wrenches, screwdrivers, air tools etc). I own 2 anvils (115 lb and 150 lb Hay Buddens). Small one is in the trailer shop. The ONLY reason I would want a bigger anvil would be to draw on the horn (and you can make bottom tools for the hardie hole to fix this). I recently pointed tripod legs (at a rondy). 1/2 square stock. 3# hammer. One heat per leg. Bigger anvil would be a little nicer for lotta things. So would other tools. I pretty much budjet tools as I go. Discipline yourself to save money and think about doing that (tough to do I know). As you get older, clothes, place to stay, way to get here and there (including insurance for both) will eat your billfold. A nationally known and accredited school for smithing would be a nice trip for you and an education as well (financed with your own money). Rich is right too. Spend time in the fire because investment in steel, heat source (fill in the blank) and blisters = experience. You are welcome in my shop anytime (just holler b4hand). Most folks here would welcome you. It seems that Francis owning a smaller anvil to me is rock and steel in the cement that binds us. Get hammer control. Impress yourself with a new set of hex keys for your toolbox. Tirade (and lecture) over. Stop by anytime. :)

[Ed Thomas]

I agree with saving money... up to a point. In the case of blacksmithing tools, if you are careful and buy smart, they are usually an investment. Unlike a car, most of the time you can resell your tools for as much or more than you paid for them. Not if you have to do so in a hurry, of course.

[Dan Crabtree]

Sounds like saving money up and gaining more experience is the key thing to do here. Yet, im woundering what is a treadle hammer? Is it a foot powered hammer or is it a type of power hammer, around here alot of smiths call the power hammer a treadle hammer.

[Daryl]

As far as planning if you might move your shop, thinking you will only buy that which you know you can't do without - get help from someone who knows what kind of work you do, let them pick out those items. Anyone, when asked will testify as to the importance of every single tool and every single piece of scrap out behind the shop - "I might need that someday, and I am not parting with it ,as it is unique and probably hard to find."
Have your helper pick out that which you do not need, on the condition thet won't take it home. :shock: That would be about right.
.
For me, I think the Pharohs had it right - YOU CAN TAKE IT (AND EVERYTHING ELSE WITHIN REACH) WITH YOU WHEN YOU GO! :wink:
I'm gonna get buried with all my stuff!

[Ed Thomas]

Do a Google search using "treadle hammer" and you will get enough hits to last until tomorrow.

Here is a picture from one such hit:



And one being used in Jeff Fetty's shop:


As you can see, the smith is using the treadle hammer as the striker. He has a cutting tool in one hand and the hot iron in the other. This is SO much more precise and natural than using a hardie.

A close up of the hand-held cutter at work between the hammer head and anvil of the treadle hammer:

[Ed Thomas]

Here is another site with pictures of someone tooling using the treadle hammer. This is the treadle hammer's real strength.

http://ironroseforge.com/treadle_hammer.htm

I don't care for the use of vise grips with tooling. The best vise grips for that is the fairly new design that is used for removing hex head nuts -- they even come with a sample nut in the jaws.

I tried to get used to them, but find that good tongs perform better. They let you make small adjustments on the fly much more easily, and are considerably more comfortable in the hand. Tooling tongs are actually among the easiest tongs to make because they require only a small modification to the most basic tong pattern.

[primtechsmith]

well at this very moment I own 7 hammers. And my favorite is a heller that Mike (yesteryear forge) gave me. So I do not have an anvil or even forge. I am lucky enough to go into a shop 3 times a week and do this. The thing I guess I would buy first before anything else would be the biggest and most god awfuly huge anvil I could find and give it to him as a thank you. The joke around the family(I am an In Law) is if it is big, heavy, and darn near impossible to move Mike will want it.

:mrgreen: peyton

[Jerry V]

... Hard work and persistance are tools but education is a tool as well. Hangin out here is an education. You may (if you wish) save some cash and attend some of the nationally acclaimed schools (and specific names escape me for just the moment)....

Southern Illinois University -- Carbondale comes to mind quickly. The Crucible in San Francisco (?). Virginia Commonwealth University has forging as part of their metals and sculpture programs (plus its in Richmond, within very easy reach of all of the really cool smithing of all stripes in Virginia, and easy reach of everything East Coast). The American College of the Building Arts in Charleston, SC has a very interesting ornamental ironworking program (even if they didn't hire me...hmmph :wink: ) There are others...

Obviously, I'm in the "save your money/get an education" camp. But not just a smithing education. If you're going to be self-employed, remember...you're running a business. You need to know HOW to run a business. Seems obvious, yes? Yet it's something we see time and again...artisans and artists who are very good at their craft...yet don't know how to run a business, and fall on their face as a result. You need to get an education in business....not necessarily as a major, could be a minor or you could just take courses and workshops. As a foundation, I'd recommend --

Principles of Accounting (both semesters)
Principles of Marketing
Small Business Management
Business Law
Principles of Federal Taxation

Can you fail even with the education? Yes, but you improve your chances of succeeding with it.

Just my 2 pesos...

[Archie Zietman]

primetechsmith, I use a large sledgehammer lain across 2 upright logs as my anvil.