HWooldridge Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 I picked up a 300 gallon propane tank for the cost of hauling it away - and it's about half full of fuel. New home owners down the road are using electricity and didn't want it around anymore. I already had the local propane supplier come out to recertify so no problems with refills. That being said, I am planning to pipe into the shop and have multiple drops along one wall to run forges and/or torches. I'm considering copper from the tank into the shop then switching to black iron pipe with fuel-safe pipe seal compound at all the joints. In addition, I was given a Victor ST-900C some years ago, which is a dedicated cutting torch. It came with an oxy-propane tip installed but I never used the torch and stored it. I am now thinking about getting one of the big 250 cuft. O2 tanks from the local welding shop and putting it on a single tank cart. I could then plug in the torch wherever convenient with fuel from the wall and O2 from the mobile cylinder. My question is - how many of you use propane in a torch setup and do you like it? I've had a Victor rig on oxy-acetylene for over 30 years and am keeping it as secondary heat - but propane is cheaper and easier to get than acetylene, especially when the dealers suddenly declare force majeure because of a shortage in some other part of the country. I don't torch weld anymore so the oxy-propane will only be used for heating and cutting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy seale Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 i have used it some...mostly in the scrap yard. big tips and rough cuts but from my observations it will not cut as clean as oxy/acet. but then it could be me too.i am unsure about copper tubing. i know it will work but, but i know you arn't suppost to use it on nat gas.but what ever you use, use bigger feed pipe with a reg at the tank and then you can go smaller and use a reg at each station.also something to keep in mind. if the line goes accross a drive way or will have heavy loads go over it put it in a pipe while you bury it, good luck jimmy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten Hammers Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 I have some LP torch experience. Cutting drive line yokes out (crosses too) and just general torch cutting (oxy propane). I have gas forges. I have a couple of weed burner heads that I use from time to time. The forge supply line has a QD on it to facilitate the hand helds. I gas weld and will never be without acetelene. I use a gas saver with the acetelene and am more than happy with this. I have had success brazing with the oxy propane ( former employer) rig but it ain't acetelene and is a bit tricky. Agreed, LP is available easier. Deere and Company used (years ago) LP liquid draw torches in the winter for thawing different things. LP hereabouts is plumbed copper underground to the first regulator outside the house. Copper pigtail out and in the house sometimes copper onward, sometimes black pipe. I have natural in the house and all in black pipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Huntress Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 I have my own full time welding shop and use propane for my torches all the time. I dont gas weld but use it for heating and cutting on occasion. It doesn't burn as hot as acetylene but it is normally cheaper and easier to get. How much will it cost you to fill a large tank like that? And how big is your shop that you will have multiple work stations that need the propane? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzonoqua Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 I use oxy propane for cutting and spot heating. I used to have acetylene, but for the sake of having one less gas bottle to lease, I got rid of the acetylene and switched to oxy prop as I run a gas forge anyway. Same as what the others said, doesn't get quite so hot, so takes longer for me to start a cut, and doesn't quite cut as clean, but you get used to it. In an ideal world, I would still have the acetylene because I think it is superior for the purpose, but in a practical world I have done without it and not been too bothered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Roy Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 I'd check with the propane supplier on what the local codes call for in the way of piping and fittings inside and out, burial depths and backfill material etc. Be safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 We have always used propane (lpg) andd found it to be a better gas for cutting with, it needs to run a slightly oxidising flame which is why it cannot be used for oxy welding of steel, I have used it for oxy welding aluminium, and it is good for brazing too. The tips are normally a 2 piece tip which is easier to clean. We run a 4 burner profile cutter and would not use acte if we had a bottle for free, (well maybe if it was free I would.) With LPG having a recessed tip I have found that the tips are not so prone to getting dirty, which means that you do not need to clean them so often. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 All of the commercial flame cutting shops I know of use LP. Dang, they do gorgeous cutting of stuff up to 12" or so. Can't imagine the fuel making any difference in the quality of the cut. Heck, I've demonstrated how you can turn off the fuel once you get the cut started and keep right on going! Blows people away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 I've been having a heckuva time with the internet today but want to thank everyone for the responses. I have a one-man shop that's about 1000 sqft. but run a variety of forge shapes because I build odd shaped ones as necessary to accomodate the work; I believe that will be easier to pipe with several ceiling drops. I ran nothing but coal forges for ten years then switched over to propane almost completely - the coal forge gets used once a year or so when I have some odd job that just won't fit a gasser. The shop is up on the hill behind the house and the propane tank will be located according to code. There is no traffic on that corner so I'll trench deeply and bring it right into the building but I'm not certain off the top of my head how large the outlet is on the tank valve. Reckon it's best to optimize pipe diameter based on the outlet. One additional question...I realize that propane takes different torch tips but can I use the same rosebud as acetylene or does the whole range of tips need to change? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten Hammers Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Hollis, I believe your welding supplier could answer that for your given torch. Smith website lists different torches for OA and LP ( rosebuds). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtforge Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Your idea sounds like what I did. I put a 330 gallon tanks outside ran it underground with copper, but ran it through a pvc tubing to protect it. Up the side of the shop to a shut off and into the shop in sch 40 black pipe with three taps with valves and propane quick disconnects. I plug in as needed forges, torches or heaters. Instead of taking tanks into town to fill they come out and fill it up saving me time and money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcostello Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 I am using propane with a standard rose bud, and if it's wrong the steel does not seem to be cold when done! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theblacksmith Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I use propane all the time-acetylene is just too expensive. Oxy/acetylene burns at about 3200 degrees C and Oxy propane is around 2800 degrees at tip of blue flame. I find a lot less burr and bubbling occurs with oxy/lpg as well-but it does require a slightly steadier hand when cutting frre hand. Cuts really tidy in profile cutter too-very litte cleaning if flame is set right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 I did switch over to oxy-propane and am wondering why I didn't do it sooner - you can teach old dogs! It works perfectly for my uses and is plenty hot enough to "forge weld" on small pieces and to blend MIG welds with the hammer. I think it also works better than acetylene for brazing as it seems to put more usable heat into the piece (if that makes sense, like more BTU's but peak temp is lower). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evfreek Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Hi Hollis. I am very curious about how you forge weld with oxy-propane. I have not had any success with it. I am using a national torch, which is the one that glass workers like to use. I also have a victor setup. I tried to forge weld a small twist, and it just didn't stick. I then rigged up a couple of soft firebricks and an air-propane torch, and it stuck just fine (borax flux). Is there any special process. I am suspicious that the heat is not even. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 Hi Hollis. I am very curious about how you forge weld with oxy-propane. I have not had any success with it. I am using a national torch, which is the one that glass workers like to use. I also have a victor setup. I tried to forge weld a small twist, and it just didn't stick. I then rigged up a couple of soft firebricks and an air-propane torch, and it stuck just fine (borax flux). Is there any special process. I am suspicious that the heat is not even. EV, I'm glad you asked since I've been experimenting with forge welding using a torch for a long time and now have the process to the point where I don't miss welds anymore. Here are the basic points: 1. You have to be able to get the entire weld area hot so your flame envelope must be large enough to do so. You can tilt the work to catch more area. 2. Treat the weld like any forge weld and upset or scarf as needed. 3. Bring to red and flux with a recipe designed for gas forges; I use SureWeld (by Mustad). 4. Return to the flame and bring to weld temp, which is incandescent yellow with a few bursting sparks; very important to use an excess fuel flame so I always feather it. In other words, you want a flame about 2x richer than neutral. I make lots of branches with leaves and use this method exclusively. I usually tack the pieces with a MIG but that is only to keep the parts in place, I don't weld up the entire joint with wire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evfreek Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Hi Hollis. Thanks for the tips. I think that what I was doing wrong was using too small of a tip (1. above). Then maybe the flame was too oxidizing. I have a hard time with a simple welding tip looking for a reducing flame, since there is no acetylene "feather" with an oxy propane flame. Looks like I will have to do some experimentation. I have no trouble doing the "pinch trick" to forge weld wires with a propane torch, borax, and a soft firebrick. Do you use a welding or cutting tip to do the forge weld? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted January 28, 2012 Author Share Posted January 28, 2012 Hi Hollis. Thanks for the tips. I think that what I was doing wrong was using too small of a tip (1. above). Then maybe the flame was too oxidizing. I have a hard time with a simple welding tip looking for a reducing flame, since there is no acetylene "feather" with an oxy propane flame. Looks like I will have to do some experimentation. I have no trouble doing the "pinch trick" to forge weld wires with a propane torch, borax, and a soft firebrick. Do you use a welding or cutting tip to do the forge weld? Good catch - I should have mentioned to use a cutting tip or rosebud as a welding tip is too small. Conceptually, it's no different from welding in a gas forge except you have no insulation to contain the heat and the tip (even a rosebud) is much smaller. On the other hand, the oxy-propane fuel mix gets plenty hot to forge weld with. I have used this with success up to joining two pieces of 3/8" round and I'm sure it would work on bigger stuff but I have the coal forge for that. However, it's the 'cat's meow' for sticking little stuff together, like leaves and small pieces. I can forge a dozen leaves with stems then build a branch from the end back in very little time and with good success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evfreek Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Thanks so much, Hollis. You are the first person I have "met" who has done this successfully, and given me the pointers. I know how to set a reducing flame on a cutting tip. For some reason, the diffuse region shows up better. I need to pick up a rosebud for the oxy propane torch. I have acetylene tips. Those weld just fine, but the welds don't look like forge welds :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmall Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Well, I worked for a number of years in both natural gas and propane distribution. Copper is acceptable for supply lines, just remember the sizing will depend on how much supply you want in the shop. So be sure to put one in big enough to deal with your largest use. In addition, some gas companies have propane distribution systems, and use polyethylene pipe. However, when propane is used in a plastic piping situation for gas operators, the pressure is NOT allowed to get above 30 psig to ensure the propane does not reliquefy (liquid propane tends to plasticize the pipe). Also, if you are going to switch the copper to black iron, it wouldn't hurt to put an insulator between the two to prevent bimetallic corrosion. Lastly, remember that propane is heavier than air....so watch if your tank is uphill from the shop. One accident I investigated involved a 500 gallon tank about 50 feet uphill from a house....it leaked, filled the house up, and then the house was no more........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelsculptor Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I've used propane for oxyfuel for years. no worries. good torch and mixing valve key. I use smith and swear by it. sc110 is 300000btu heating tip for heavy duty cutting torch. I've hand cut 5" thick with sc50-6 pretty smoothly. with sc40-00 have done sheet metal with same torch. with in tip mix valve can swap tip to run acetylene or mapp(or whatever it is now) cleanly without issue. with gouging tips I've gouged a lot as well as having used regular cutting tips for gouging. sc50 heavy preheats can be really handy, and sc40 std preheats are also great. also very efficient. the tuf tony, the predecessor to current heaviest duty cutting torch, is crazy strong and durable and efficient/smooth with very little pressure drop through torch. use 3/8" hose for the sc110 or #6 tip it makes a real difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theblacksmith Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Am I correct in thinking that copper is NOT safe to use with acetylene- I know your using lpg/propane Hollis-Im just mentioning this in case anyone plans to put in a system where they can switch from lpg to acetylene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAllcorn Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 I bought a Victor rosebud specifically for propane early in 2011. It has the designation "N" on it whereas the acetylene tip has "A" stamped on it. I had previously tried using my "A" tip a time or two with propane but wasn't satisfied. The "N" tip seems to work better, but as others have stated, acetylene burns hotter. I haven't tried any of the other gasses such as propylene, etc. I was doing a "test drive" with propane last year until I had a sculpture repair project come in the shop and had to convert back to acetylene for that and haven't changed back. If anyone knows, I would like to know the actual difference between the "N" and "A" tips, construction wise. Perhaps it is the size of the orfices? Or something else in the internal part? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Yates Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 I picked up a 300 gallon propane tank for the cost of hauling it away - and it's about half full of fuel. New home owners down the road are using electricity and didn't want it around anymore. I already had the local propane supplier come out to recertify so no problems with refills. That being said, I am planning to pipe into the shop and have multiple drops along one wall to run forges and/or torches. I'm considering copper from the tank into the shop then switching to black iron pipe with fuel-safe pipe seal compound at all the joints. In addition, I was given a Victor ST-900C some years ago, which is a dedicated cutting torch. It came with an oxy-propane tip installed but I never used the torch and stored it. I am now thinking about getting one of the big 250 cuft. O2 tanks from the local welding shop and putting it on a single tank cart. I could then plug in the torch wherever convenient with fuel from the wall and O2 from the mobile cylinder. My question is - how many of you use propane in a torch setup and do you like it? I've had a Victor rig on oxy-acetylene for over 30 years and am keeping it as secondary heat - but propane is cheaper and easier to get than acetylene, especially when the dealers suddenly declare force majeure because of a shortage in some other part of the country. I don't torch weld anymore so the oxy-propane will only be used for heating and cutting. it is a good set up and good . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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